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Post by strange on Nov 29, 2011 17:04:55 GMT -5
From what I'm told, Yates's F company had their horses scattered by the Indians and much of their ammo was carried off. It is likely that they would have run out of ammo sooner than everyone else.
My question... what do the extra guys do if they are still living but they run out of ammo sooner than the other guys who are still there? Do they borrow weapons from the other living soldiers or do they wait for someone to die or do they get quickly reassigned to help with the wounded, what happens with the extra guys who run out of ammo before the other guys?
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Post by tbw on Nov 30, 2011 9:05:32 GMT -5
From what I'm told, Yates's F company had their horses scattered by the Indians and much of their ammo was carried off. It is likely that they would have run out of ammo sooner than everyone else. My question... what do the extra guys do if they are still living but they run out of ammo sooner than the other guys who are still there? Do they borrow weapons from the other living soldiers or do they wait for someone to die or do they get quickly reassigned to help with the wounded, what happens with the extra guys who run out of ammo before the other guys? Good question. I would say It would be the commanders responsibility to see to it the men survive this experience in good order. And in that undertaking, he would try to acquire more ammo, either through courier or by other means to one of the other company's if possible. Otherwise, I would say this commander would personally see to it that his men judiciously expend what little of their ammo remains and still be used as effectively and efficiently as possible. This was best done, as was recorded, by volley fire. This volley fire might have been what Reno's men were hearing. Some of Reno's men said that they heard volley fire, others said that they heard none. Personally, I've always thought that they were hearing Yates' men and it kind of gives a bench mark as to when their firing ended as to when some of them don't hear it. For example I think Girard said he heard it from the woods below, some said that they heard it on the bluffs above, but when you take into consideration what they considered sporadic and volley by Moylans account I think we know what they were hearing. Any way back to what you were saying. Volley fire would have controlled every shot fired and the rate of fire of each gun per minute. And would have effectively held off any number of Indians from that position for quite some time as they all, in some instance might need not have fired. For example if Yates had been able to control this fire to something like on the average 3 rounds per minute, they could have continuously volley fired for about 17 minutes and still had about 25 rounds left in their revolvers to finish the action with their brothers. So I'm not so sure it would have affected their performance as much as some would think. Because I do think those volleys that were heard was Yate's men firing. I'm not sure, it might even have been all of them. But I think a properly trained commander would have seen to it his men did the best with what they had, and I'm quite sure they did. |
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Post by joewiggs on Dec 2, 2011 19:37:09 GMT -5
Good question Sir Strange and T.B.W. has hit the nail on the head with the proverbial hammer by pointing out the "Commander's" duty to his men to ensure a proper response during battle. Without stout leadership, the continuity required to meet the "threat" and resolve the opponents "attack" becomes ineffective.
An example of ineffective commander/leadership resulting in a tragedy is, of course, Reno's "charge" to the bluffs.
A second, critical component of "survival in good order" of the soldier(s) who finds himself in such a situation as you have described would be the "proximity" of the enemy. The closer the physical position (threat) of the enemy combined with a minimum of preparation by the opponent (lost of ammo,etc.) the more likelihood a frantic "flight" will come about.
A third component is training! Consistent, responsible, and comprehensive study and physical preparation to comprehend the tactics and motives of the "enemy" will do much to ensure a victory although nothing is guaranteed.
In other words, there are a myriad of factors that affect the outcome of battle between opposing forces to include unforeseen circumstances like the ones you have pointed out.
The lost of ammo, weaponry and manpower are the harbingers of defeat that can only be offset by leadership, training, and field position. The consideration of many other "factors" may be imposed, as well, for consideration.
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Post by crazycanuck on Dec 3, 2011 9:23:30 GMT -5
A better example Jigs in my opinion of ineffective /leadership resulting in a worse tragedy than Reno's charge to the bluffs was Custer's deer in the headlights response to the Indians "charge" and the resultant decimation of his command. What do you think Custer meant when he said to his soldiers on the bluffs before the descent into MTC and the LBH "there is plenty of them down there for all us boys" ? I think he meant you might get to kill some Indians today if they don't cooperate(business as usual in those days SO WE CAN'T FAULT THEM or can we?). Just my humble opinion that if you" live by the sword" you can "die by the sword" and I think Custer would of agreed with this maxim(of course he would of probably of liked to have had some swords near the end so he and soldiers could of gone down swinging other than with there rifles).
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Post by joewiggs on Dec 3, 2011 21:57:43 GMT -5
GCC, I agree with your message regarding "living" by the sword which will(eventually) get you killed. Unfortunately, what else can a soldier do?  |
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Post by crazycanuck on Dec 4, 2011 9:33:43 GMT -5
Jigs, get the leaders to "walk softly carry big sword(sic) and make love not war" and the soldiers will copy,unfortunately war appears to be entertaining with the BIG boys and there TOYS.
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Post by joewiggs on Dec 4, 2011 10:51:25 GMT -5
This is truly the golden answer to an eternal problem that affects every man, woman, and child on the planet;Leadership! god save us all from our leaders!  |
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Post by strange on Dec 4, 2011 14:52:46 GMT -5
GCC, I agree with your message regarding "living" by the sword which will(eventually) get you killed. Unfortunately, what else can a soldier do? Retire? To Canuck and Wiggs, That biblical phrase probably refers better towards the people like Saddam Hussein who get into power by riding a few coffins to reach their throne, and then while in power they rule by riding a few more coffins to maintain their order, and then finally someone puts them out the same way. Given the shoes he was in, it may have been necessary to ride those coffins on the way up... but then he never grew out of it, and he always lived by the same brutal tactics that would have only been tolerable if they had been temporary but instead had no end in sight until he was forced to behave or was eventually put to death. The flipside to this is also the double-edged (cutting both ways) Sword of the Lord, which if one lives by that sword they will live forever. |
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Post by tbw on Dec 4, 2011 15:12:25 GMT -5
GCC, I agree with your message regarding "living" by the sword which will(eventually) get you killed. Unfortunately, what else can a soldier do? Retire? To Canuck and Wiggs, That biblical phrase probably refers better towards the people like Saddam Hussein who get into power by riding a few coffins to reach their throne, and then while in power they rule by riding a few more coffins to maintain their order, and then finally someone puts them out the same way. Given the shoes he was in, it may have been necessary to ride those coffins on the way up... but then he never grew out of it, and he always lived by the same brutal tactics that would have only been tolerable if they had been temporary but instead had no end in sight until he was forced to behave or was eventually put to death. The flipside to this is also the double-edged (cutting both ways) Sword of the Lord, which if one lives by that sword they will live forever. I like this. Very good analysis Sir Strange, very good indeed. Thank you |
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Post by whitebull on Dec 4, 2011 17:51:49 GMT -5
Me too! Classy job Sir Strange, classy job and very well done!
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Post by crazycanuck on Dec 5, 2011 7:47:10 GMT -5
The idiom "live by the sword and die by the sword " applies to the government and people(soldiers,farmers,miners etc,) who died when killing Indians as they participated in the Indian removal policy(as there willingness to move West) from 1827 onward as much as it does to Hussein etc...writ smaller(how much smaller is open for debate?) ! "Know thy self".
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Post by tbw on Dec 5, 2011 8:04:07 GMT -5
The idiom "live by the sword and die by the sword " applies to the government and people(soldiers,farmers,miners etc,) who died when killing Indians as they participated in the Indian removal policy(as there willingness to move West) from 1827 onward as much as it does to Hussein etc...writ smaller(how much smaller is open for debate?) ! "Know thy self". I am not trying to be "smart" here, but I would sincerely like to know why you feel "the people (soldiers, farmers, miners, etc)" should be compared to Saddam Hussein? And please do explain what you mean by "the Indian removal policy" because I fail to see how "the people", innocent to a default could be blamed for the policy. |
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Post by crazycanuck on Dec 5, 2011 8:04:13 GMT -5
Strange as it may sound to our ears Andrew Jackson rode a few slave and seminole coffins on the way up and as president introduced the brutal Indian removal policy(Jackson couldn't grow out of it).How much Jackson is like Hussein is for you to think about? "Know thy self"
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Post by crazycanuck on Dec 5, 2011 8:05:55 GMT -5
"Trail of tears".Would you like to walk a mile in ther shoes?
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Post by crazycanuck on Dec 5, 2011 8:07:25 GMT -5
The people went along with it TB thus they are impicated.
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