The Incredible story of John Martin

[joewiggs]

I got a quiz for everyone. Why didn't Custer attack the Indians in the rear at Ford "B?" Hubba, Hubba, Hubba ;D

[tbw]

Q. That place from which you saw the village and children, dogs and ponies; was it the highest point down the river below where Major Reno made his stand?
A. Yes sir, the highest hill; the very highest point around there.
Q. When you moved down afterwards did some of the troops go on that high hill?
A. No sir.

Q. How far was the point you left General Custer from the place where Major Reno made his stand?
A. I don't know. I could not judge. It was 5 or 600 yards or probably 3/4 of a mile.

Q. How far was that high point from the head of the ravine you speak of?
A. About 500 yards.
Q. When you stopped to water your horses, as you speak of, was that after Major Reno had gone ahead?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see any trail where Genl. Custer turned off to the right?
A. Yes sir. It looked like tepee poles had been dragged along there.
Q. Did you follow that trail?
A. Yes sir., we followed it till we got on the hill: then we turned a little to the right.
Q. After watering your horses you pushed ahead with Gen. Custer?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you go pretty fast?
A. Yes sir.
Q When you left General Custer you could not see the river?
A. No sir, it was on the other side of the hill, the hill was in front
of us.

Q. Did you go to the top of that high point?
A. No sir. Nobody but the Indian scouts.
Q. Did not you and Gen. Custer go to the top of it?
A, No, sir.
Q. Who was with Gen. Custer at that time on the hill?
A. His brothers and his nephew.
Q. Were those all round him at that time?
A. Yes sir.

Q Where did you see Major Reno fighting?
A. I was up on the ridge and he was in the bottom.
Q. Where was that point from which you first saw Major Reno fighting?
Was it further up the stream than where he made the stand or at the same place?
A. About at the same place.
Q, Was his line deployed in skirmish form?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Then you would come back about three quarters of a mile from where you left General Custer.
A. Yes sir.
Q. You found Major Reno with his line deployed?
A0 Yes sir.

Q. How long after Major Reno got on the hill did you come up; or did you get to the hill at the same time Major Reno did, or before or after?
A. The men were retreating at the time we came there.
... We kept on on GeneraL Custer's trail; and after, we got on this ridge there I saw Major Reno fighting in the bottom. About the time we got there, I saw Major Reno's battalion retreating to the same side of the river we were on.
Q, Did you go with Capt, Benteen's column or with the pack train?
A. I was with my company with Capt. Benteen.
Q. Were you with your company when it joined Major Reno's command?
A. Yes sir.Q. You came up with your company to where Major Reno was on the hill?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When you got there what did you do?
A. I did nothing. I was on my horse behind Capt. Benteen - I was his orderly.

Q. Did you see any troops move down before the whole command moved down?
A. No sir.
Q. Which company moved down the stream ahead?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Was any company ordered out ahead of the others?
A. I don't recollect.
Q. Did you see Capt. Weir's company go that way?
A. It went with the battalion when we went down stream.
Q. Do you mean he moved with the battalion at the same time it did?
A, Yes sir. At the time we got to the head of the ravine, Capt. Weir took his company a little to the right and then came back again.
Q. When you went down there, what did you see about Indians?
A. I was right in front of the column and could see Indians after we got to the head of the first ravine we struck. We halted there and that was the time Capt. Weir wanted to take his company and go down the stream to see General Custer. He went a little to the right and came back again. The Indians were leaving General Custer and comiing back to us, firing; the bulk of them came up to the column where we were.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. Then the column turned back, as that was a bad position there; the Indians were on both flanks and the ravine was very deep, and we could not go through if we went down, and I expect nobody wanted to go; we went back, I don't know how far, and took position.
Q. Did you come to near the place where you first saw Major Reno?
A. No sir, it was a little further down the stream.


Q. Who were you orderly for the second day?
A. I was the only one that sounded the calls. After the Indians left in the evening I sounded retreat, recall and march, as there might be some of our friends in the ravines that we could not see, and if they heard the calls they would come up. [Interesting order, it wasn't just something he did on a lark.]
Q Were you acting as Chief Trumpeter?
A. I was trumpeter for Gen. Custer, but I could not go back and join him, and then I was trumpeter for Major Reno's battalion. I did not know where the other trumpeters were.

///))) SUMMARY
\\\)))

I decided to include all the pertinent quotes since there was trouble finding the other quiz points. The underlined portions tell a story that isn't consistent with other testimony. From this there are these pertinent facts.


1. When Benteen's bttn. arrived on the hill where he would meet Reno... This is where Martin was at the time and what he stated his job was...I was on my horse behind Capt. Benteen - I was his orderly. [No doubt within a few yards of Capt. Benteen.]

2. When he went down stream on the advance to contact with Custer he announced this...
A. I was right in front of the column...

3. Q. Who were you orderly for the second day? [Interesting question as he only announced he was orderly for Benteen, evidently only on the first day]
A. I was the only one that sounded the calls. After the Indians left in the evening I sounded retreat, recall and march, as there might be some of our friends in the ravines that we could not see, and if they heard the calls they would come up. [Someone gave him that order on the first day]

4. Q Were you acting as Chief Trumpeter?
A. I was trumpeter for Gen. Custer, but I could not go back and join him {danger! danger! Will Robinson, or was that Willy?], and then I was trumpeter for Major Reno's battalion.

The trumpeter job seemed to be assigned to him from the moment Reno arrived on the hill, I've not one doubt that was the case. When asked about the 'orderly' job he answers it with trumpeter duties. And as Martin was at the head of that column being the orderly trumpeter for Maj. Reno's battalion, the man in charge up there had to have been Major Reno. And Weir, as SB asked about?

Q. Did you see any troops move down before the whole command moved down?
A. No sir.
Q. Which company moved down the stream ahead?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Was any company ordered out ahead of the others?
A. I don't recollect.
Q. Did you see Capt. Weir's company go that way?
A. It went with the battalion when we went down stream.
Q. Do you mean he moved with the battalion at the same time it did?
A, Yes sir. At the time we got to the head of the ravine, Capt. Weir took his company a little to the right and then came back again.
Q. When you went down there, what did you see about Indians?
A. I was right in front of the column and could see Indians after we got to the head of the first ravine we struck. We halted there and that was the time Capt. Weir wanted to take his company and go down the stream to see General Custer. He went a little to the right and came back again. The Indians were leaving General Custer and comiing back to us, firing; the bulk of them came up to the column where we were.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. Then the column turned back, as that was a bad position there; the Indians were on both flanks and the ravine was very deep, and we could not go through if we went down, and I expect nobody wanted to go; we went back, I don't know how far, and took position.
Q. Did you come to near the place where you first saw Major Reno?
A. No sir, it was a little further down the stream.

There are those would be wanna be's today who would have you believe that when they left for the move downstream to contact Custer that they left from Reno hill and moved downstream... oh, about a quarter mile, give or take an inch or two of preciseness, and then came back to Reno hill, silly isn't it, why go at all? And then there are those who believe much the same about them moving down to Weir Peak and then hotfooting it back to Reno hill. But here, in Martin's testimony, he said he left Custer and rode back about 5-600 yards - 3/4ths mile to that same hill he and Custer saw the empty village, and where when he came back he first observed Reno's SL in the valley.

Quiz question.

Precisely how far away and in what direction from that same hill did he say was Reno's first position on the hill?

[joewiggs]

Wonderful information! t seems to me that Martin was very sure and emphatic about the "point" in reference was the "highest" point in the area. would that not have been Sharpshooter's Ridge? Just a question before I dissect this wonderful package of information. Somehow I've missed this testimony until now! Be back with my guess.

[tbw]

Mar 17, 2013 19:44:07 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

I got a quiz for everyone. Why didn't Custer attack the Indians in the rear at Ford "B?" Hubba, Hubba, Hubba ;D

Who knows? Maybe he did. In one of Martin's interviews he indicated by the time he got back to that same hill he looked back ( and just who the hell wouldn't have? I'd have been more than curious to have had one last look, thats for sure.) and saw the Indians waving blankets etc and indicating Custer had fell into an ambush.

[whitebull]

Dang! That's a whole lot of info. for a brain like mine! Good job tbw! you sure know your stuff?

[joewiggs]

tbw, I'm going to guess that Martin's "point" was atop Sharpshooter's ridge. from there the lower portion of the Indian camp would have been blocked out by the prefatory;Weir's Point. As a result, Martin and Custer observed that part of the village in the environs of "Ford B."

from martin's testimony, I deduced that the reason Custer turned "right" was his observation of the Indian trail Martin referred to. A trail i believe that traveled in the general direction of the Cheyenne portion of the camp.

Custer espied the relatively empty village ( the warrior were engaging Reno) watched the exodus oldsters, women, and children running north. This must have been the reason for his exclaiming, "We've got 'em now boys." He must have envision the Washita battle were the capture of Indian women and children prevented thousand of warriors from exterminating his command.

Sharpshooter's Hill is approximately 3/4 of a mile from the point that Reno's command took refuge. I believe that Kanipe was sent back with his message at the base of the hill. Custer now knew that he would need all of his ammo and men for the task at hand.

A short time after, Custer became aware of Benteen's position, something he did not know when he sent kanipe else he would have directed Kanipe to contact Benteen directly rather than the pack train commander.

Hence, the second and written note to Benteen who position must have been noticed with 10 minutes or so of the first messenger. I surmise that Martin (and the command) may have reached the intersection of Cedar Coulee and the dry ravine (Medicine Trail Coulee) when a messenger was left on Sharpshooter Hill with the task to inform the General immediately upon discerning Benteen's command, which he did.

The total distance from the place Martin was sent back could only have been several miles. In his interview with Graham he stated that he did not return up the coulee he transversed but cut across country and stumbled into Benteen.

I believe that Weir went directly to the environs of Weir Peak simply because that is where he distinctly heard the sound of firing. he was haphazardly followed by Benteen, than Reno. When Weir came rushing away from the embolden warriors, tail of the out going, slow moving caravan was hampered by Moylan's injured and still still in the area in which the adventure began.

[tbw]

Most of this was covered in my post « Result #21 on Mar 7, 2013, 9:19pm »

The tendency is to try to make Martin travel further than he really did, and the same is true for Kanipe. And the reason why is those supposed sightings of Custer and his men made by Reno's men in the valley. To try to pinpoint these exact area's is like trying to find a flea on an elephants back. And there's as many pitfall's, fly-traps, and snare's there as there are fleas. And the first and most compelling is where Benteen said he met Martin and/or Kanipe. Most people who try to research this always, without fail, start their research in the linear first things first approach in trying to understand this, and in that regard they start at what they percieve as the beginning, like back where the coffee was made earlier that morning or even Busby and work linearly 'forward' from there. BIG MISTAKE! Because when they come to where Benteen said he met Martin and Kanipe and draw conclusions on what he said, thus forcing Martin's testimony and Kanipe's statements to somehow conform to where Benteen claimed that was. As we've seen that doesn't work, and never will. And what you have today are those who tend to believe Benteen rather than Martin's entire testimony and statements, and placeing the sightings further back towards Reno Hill as they can to conform to Benteen's 4 miles it would have taken for Martin to have made that trip Benteen needed to have him make. So I have to address those spurious sightings of Custer and/or his men to make sense of it all. Which once again I've already done. And for that we will need to revisit post « Result #23 on Mar 6, 2013, 2:12pm » where I said,

"Timing foul ups and of repeated nonsense - or the truth.

The way history is told today, Martin had to have been in two places at the very same moment in time. And there is no way out of it according to the way the timing is believed to be today." And how does this work out? When those who propose that Martin's sightings & his departure from Custer and those concurrent sightings of Reno's men in the valley was anywhere from the near environs of Reno Hill to the near environs of Weir
Peak, they start a cascade of events that could only be described as a paradox, Martin being in two places as the very same moment in time. Creating one of these is like trying to create time travel, yet for over 135 years that's whats been believed about this battle when it comes to those sightings, both from the bluffs and from the valley to the bluffs in an attempt to understand what was seen where.

Curly said, to paraphrase, that Custer was running at the same time the Crows and Reno's men were running. And this one statement is significant to understand what could or couldn't have been. Martin testified that it took him about 5 to 10 minutes to get back to that same hill after Cooke gave him the dispatch. In an interview with Camp, Curley said that when he looked back at where Custer was, this about the time he arrived
at the same place they looked down on the village on his way back, he said that he saw the Indians waving blankets and ambushing Custer. Was his statements concerning this credible or incredible? It wasn't over 5 to 10 minutes and after haveing travelled about a third of a mile to the river, Custer after fighting briefly, which is the story time and time again, he retreated from the river, and eveyone knows the rest of this story. So Curley's observation of Custer at that time, and when and where Martin's sigthing of the same not only make perfect sense as they state it, it was what happened. That the Crows were running at the same time is entirely believeable, and their story is told in the Arikara Narratives that support this happening at the same time as they were told to leave and not engage the warriors. After they fired their shots into the village from the bluffs, as they told it, they left. Not only did they leave they had to high tail (RUN!) it about 3 miles downstream, not far from Reno hill for Benteen to meet them there where and when he claimed he met them. But, and its rather a huge one, but, there's one thing in this surround story that isn't, doesn't and wont ever make one lick of sense, nor will it agree with any of those who were with Reno in the valley at that time, no matter how they tell their stories about what happened down there. And how is that? "Custer's men were running at the same time the Crows and RENO'S MEN WERE RUNNING!" Lt. Varnum's observation of the white horse's behind point two was made at the time Reno's skirmish line set up. THis sighting was made right below Weir peak, within a quarter mile north of it. From Weir peak to the point where Custer sent Martin back (600 yards from ford "b") was and still is just shy of a mile by about 100 yards. Custer's speed at that time was clocked at about 11 mph, this of course being, on the average'. Figureing just this average, it would have taken no longer that 4 minutes for them to have gone that distance. And as Martin testified that Custer didn't stop to help with the message it would have taken no longer for Custer to have arrived at ford "b" in anything over 2 minutes from where he left Martin. Total time from 'behind point 2' to the ford for Custer's bttn. wasn't any longer than 6 minutes. This same 6 minutes back to Weir peak, the much percieved place some people think where the "same hill" is, is what it would have taken for Martin to have rode back to it. So the elapsed time between the two is the 2 minutes it took Custer to go to the ford, less Martin's time of 6 minutes from that point they departed back to Weir peak. This being an elapsed time of about 4 minutes (the total time Custer spent at that ford) when Martin said he would have looked back and observed Custer's bttn in ambush after leaving them.

These 10 minutes seem to be an eternity to some, but it wasn't. From the time Varnum sighted the white horse troop to the time Custer attacked at that ford would have been an elapsed time of 6 minutes. 4 more minutes there at the ford and then they were on the run. Custer's men were running at the same time Reno's men were running at the same time the Crows were running, just as Curley said.

F. Girard was no military man, he and Charlie Reynolds just didn't understand what was taking place about 10 minutes after they had set up that SL. Reynolds saying "what fool move is this" in regards to the maneuvers they were performing. It is known that about 10 minutes after they set that SL up that Reno took one of the troops and placed them in the woods due to the flanking moves by the Indians. At the same time and to compensate for the loss of that company the SL shifted in what seemed to Girard to be quite literally changing places and evidently on the move back to the timbers edge. And Curley's observation of that made it seem they were as he put it 'on the run.' But were they? Did they stop there and wait longer, or as Girard, DeRudio and a few others said keep right on going from there through the timber to the bluffs?

Lets contrast this with where Benteen claimed he met Martin. It would have taken no less than a half an hour for Martin to have rode the 4 mile distance back to Benteen, this contrary to what Martin stated as 15 to 20 minutes from that 'same hill'. But that's not all. Benteen stated he was two miles from the river at that time, he still had to go to the rivers edge to have Martin in tow when Benteen observed those 12 to 13 troopers being mauled by the Indians as he testified to. And his gait was never reported being over a trot, so it wouldn't have taken much less than an additional 15 minutes for him to have arrived at those bluffs over the river for him to have observed those imperiled troopers. 45 minutes! For real? "And now you know why Benteen stated he thought Custer's troopers were all dead by the time he met Reno on the hill. It would take another 7 1/2 minutes for him to get up there to see Reno and his men about half way up the bluffs running for their very lives!, that's 52 1/2 minutes after Martin departed from Custer. That's 46 1/2 minutes to many from the time Martin see's Custer in retreat, and from the same time Curley saw them all in retreat at that same moment in time 46 1/2 minutes before.

There is no way Reno stayed in that valley fighting for 52 minutes. There's absolutely no way anyone can justify this ride Benteen makes him ride without saying where Martin was when he saw them in retreat the first time to when he again said they were retreating with Benteen at his side, and this being 46 1/2 minutes apart at two different locations about 4 miles apart. And there's good reason for it, it didn't happen where Benteen said it did. And no, Benteen's mileage isn't off, what is half cocked is where he claims Ford "A" had anything to do with it.

Lastly from « Result #21 on Mar 7, 2013, 9:19pm »
Where I stated...
What about those shorter figures the Inquiry coaxed out of him (Martin) and his "hour(s) tesimony that was in reality miles? This being the 1 1/2 miles back to Benteen (from that "same hill"), with the mile then back to where they met Reno? In the first instance, 1 1/2 miles (Back to Benteen), would put the place where Benteen met Martin 1/2 mile the other side (SE) of Weir peak, while in the 2nd, with Martin and Benteen meeting Reno, this being about a half mile NW of Weir Peak, that is, if Martin left from where he said he did at the COI and where Benteen confirmed it was in Martin's interview (600 yards from ford "b"). It couldn't have been anywhere else. And as Martin did state that they, as in no one, went there (on or over the 'same hill') on their trip down to save Custer it Makes Weir Peak alot less than it was thought to be, but you still won't convince some of that. But as always and forever, Benteen's location where he met Martin wasn't linear as evidenced in Martin's testimony, and as we well know, he wasn't a half mile SE of Weir peak when Martin met him. But that wasn't Martin's fault, nor ours, it was, totally Benteen's, as that's "the way he would have it." Until now.

[whitebull]

Wow! I had to read your post three times to get my head around it but, I think i did. Benteen,the devil, did a whole lot of tricks to mess things up for those who are trying to figure things out.

One thing you said that I am sure about is that martin had to travel a lot more than 1/2 because he wasn't just a half mile SE of Weir Point. He was about four miles from there I think. I remember that from The last Stand.

I want to thank you for all your work and man, you must have been studying this for a long time. Keep up the good work.

[tbw]

Mar 20, 2013 19:21:36 GMT -5 whitebull said:

Wow! I had to read your post three times to get my head around it but, I think i did. Benteen,the devil, did a whole lot of tricks to mess things up for those who are trying to figure things out.

One thing you said that I am sure about is that martin had to travel a lot more than 1/2 because he wasn't just a half mile SE of Weir Point. He was about four miles from there I think. I remember that from The last Stand.

I want to thank you for all your work and man, you must have been studying this for a long time. Keep up the good work.

While discussing what I will now refer to as the Weir Advance, not just meaning that but the whole affair involving the other units in that progression, one must of necessity do that to find out where they were when they left, but also where they went to when they came back. In this regard this is what Martin said.


Q. How far was the point you left General Custer from the place where Major Reno made his stand?
[NOTE: As far as we know "the point Martin left Gen. Custer was, as stated, about 600 yards up MTC from ford "B".
AND: The place where Maj. Reno made his stand was how far from there... the indication is, it wasn't very far away.]

A. I don't know. I could not judge. It was 5 or 600 yards or probably 3/4 of a mile.

The next question then would be, did he mean it was the same distance and possibly "the same hill" as those yards and that 3/4ths of a mile is exactly what he stated it was from 'where he left' to where that 'same hill' was?

Martin, pg 343 After I started from Gen. Custer to go back, I travelled 5 or 600 yards perhaps 3/4 of a mile. I got on the same ridge where General Custer saw the village the first time. On going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno's battalion was engaged. I paid no further attention to it, but went forward on my business. Then I went on to the edge of the stream and about 3 or 400 yards above the creek where we watered our horses, I met Capt. Benteen.

Sounds like its the same thing for the same place on the 'same hill' doesn't it?

Q. How far was that high point from the head of the ravine you speak of?
A. About 500 yards. (So it wasn't 600 up to 3/4ths of a mile from where he left Custer, and it wasn't the same back to where Reno made his (first) stand, it was 500 yards and "not the same hill"! Because, from that "same hill' to where he departed Custer is a hell of a lot longer than 500 yards for the place he marked on the Maguire map! Its either we have been duped into believing the point he referred to was Weir Peak because of the 3/4ths of a mile he initially stated, OR, or it was because that 'same hill' was a hell of a lot closer than Weir peak from the place he departed which was (600 yards from ford "B"). The 'same hill' then was "About 500 yards" from there, this being about and only 1/4th of a mile from where he left Custer?

Here is the surround of that 'same hill' from beginning to end, now that we know he was referring to a point other than Weir peak.

General Custer left that watering place and went about 300 yards in a straight line; then after that he turned to the right a little more and travelled that way four or five hundred yards; then there was a kind of a big bend on the hill. He turned these hills and went on top of the ridge. All at once we looked on the bottom and saw the Indian village; at the same time we could see only children and dogs and ponies around the village: no Indians at all. General Custer appeared to be glad to see the village in that shape, and supposed the Indians were asleep in their tepees.

Q. If you can tell the distance, state how far you had gone from that watering place to the place where you could look down and see the village?

A. I should judge it was about an hour (mile) and a half after we left the watering place till we got to that place. There were hills to go up and down and we could not go so fast. (The seventh and eighth words are obvious errors. The witness was speaking of distance and probably used "a mile and a half." (W. A. G . )

Q. Did you go to the top of that high point?
A. No sir nobody but the Indian scouts,
Q. Did not you and Gen. Custer go to the top of it?
A, No, sir.


A. After I started from Gen. Custer to go back, I travelled 500 yards or 600 yards perhaps 3/4 of a mile. I got on the same ridge where General Custer saw the village the first time. On going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno's battalion was engaged. I paid no further attention to it, but went forward on my business. Then I went on to the edge of the stream and about 3 or 400 yards above the creek where we watered our horses, I met Capt. Benteen.

Q. From that place where you looked down and saw Major Reno's battalion engaged - can you tell how long it was after that before you got to Capt. Benteen?
A. I judge it was 15 or 20 minutes.

Q. How long do you suppose it took you to go that distance?
A. I think it took an hour (mile) or an hour (mile) and a quarter or an hour (mile) and a half. I can't tell as I had no watch.

A. After I started from Gen. Custer to go back, I travelled 500 yards or 600 yards perhaps 3/4 of a mile. I got on the same ridge where General Custer saw the village the first time. On going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno's battalion was engaged. I paid no further attention to it, but went forward on my business. Then I went on to the edge of the stream and about 3 or 400 yards above the creek where we watered our horses, I met Capt. Benteen.

General Custer left that watering place and went about 300 yards in a straight line; then after that he turned to the right a little more and travelled that way four or five hundred yards; then there was a kind of a big bend on the hill. He turned these hills and went on top of the ridge. All at once we looked on the bottom and saw the Indian village; at the same time we could see only children and dogs and ponies around the village: no Indians at all. General Custer appeared to be glad to see the village in that shape, and supposed the Indians were asleep in their tepees.

Q. If it took you an hour (mile) and a half to go from General Custer to Capt. Benteen and an hour (mile) and a half to come back from Capt. Benteen to where you met Major Reno, then it was two hours (miles) and a half (It should have been 3 miles, but this wasn't a slip on the questioner's part, it was deliberate for a reason) from the time you left General Custer till you met Major Reno coming up the hill?
A. I was about an hour (mile) and a half going from General Custer to Capt. Benteen because it was a long distance. I can't say whether the whole time was two or three hours (miles).
Q. Might it not be less than two hours (miles) and a half (again the questioner followed the 2 1/2 mile time instead of 3) from the time you left General Custer till you found Major Reno coming up the hill?
A. I judge it was about an hour (1 mile) after I delivered that despatch.
Q. Then it took you about an hour (mile) and a half to deliver the despatch? (500 yards of which is also accounted for in this mile and a half from the time he left Custer... meaning that when he topped that "same hill" Benteen was only about 1 1/4th mile away!
A. Yes sir.

Q. From that place where you looked down and saw Major Reno's battalion engaged - can you tell how long it was after that before you got to Capt. Benteen?
A. I judge it was 15 or 20 minutes.

A. After I started from Gen. Custer to go back, I travelled 500 yards or 600 yards perhaps 3/4 of a mile. I got on the same ridge where General Custer saw the village the first time. On going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno's battalion was engaged. I paid no further attention to it, but went forward on my business. Then I went on to the edge of the stream and about 3 or 400 yards above the creek where we watered our horses, I met Capt. Benteen.


Q. That place from which you saw the village and children,, dogs and ponies, was it the highest point down the river below where Major Reno made his stand?
A. Yes sir, the highest hill; the very highest point around there.
Q.. When you moved down afterwards did some of the troops go on that high hill?
A. No sir.


Q. From the time you had seen Major Reno fighting in the timber how many miles had you traveled?
A. I judge about 2 miles up the river.

A. After I started from Gen. Custer to go back, I travelled 500 yards 5 or 600 yards perhaps 3/4 of a mile. I got on the same ridge where General Custer saw the village the first time. On going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno's battalion was engaged. I paid no further attention to it, but went forward on my business. Then I went on to the edge of the stream and about 3 or 400 yards above the creek where we watered our horses, I met Capt. Benteen.

Q. How long were you in coming back after you met Capt. Benteen to the spot you met Major Reno?
A. I judge it took 3/4 of an hour (mile) or an hour (mile) to come back.


Read these very slowly, or you will miss it, note the punctuation and the plural or lack thereof and also "where" specifically he was referring to. Keep perspective as to 'place'.

A, We kept on on General Custer's trail; and after we got on this ridge where I saw Major Reno fighting in the bottom, About the time we got there, I saw Major Reno's battalion retreating to the same side of the river we were on.


Q. Can you fix the point on the map where you saw the village? Look at the map and don't try to do it unless you can?
A. It was on a line leading from Major Reno's position (in the valley) to the point 7 (Weir Peak) as I understand the map, because when I came back a little bit beyond our position on the hill, I saw Major Reno's column fighting.

Q. That place from which you saw the village and children,, dogs and ponies, was it the highest point down the river below where Major Reno made his stand?
A. Yes sir, the highest hill; the very highest point around there.

There was throughout his testimony a consistency of distance and the time it took from where Custer watered to that 'same hill', and yet again, from there back to that same watering hole where within 400 yards he met Benteen. And no, there's no way he went 4 or 5 miles and the pace of a walk to have rode that hour he mistook miles for. To believe that, you would have to say that Benteen and Martin lied about the pace as they both stated it, quote a "jog-trot" and you would have to disbelieve everything Martin did testify to. AND, even at that ridiculous unstated pace of 4 mph over that long distance, it would have taken him going that distance a half an hour or more, at minimum10 to 15 minutes more than he stated (15 to 20 min.) it took to get back to Benteen.

As for keeping it up? Someone has to figure out things for themselves, and if I had to tell it all, it would fill volumes, and no, that I won't give away for free.

[joewiggs]

Outstanding tbw, I finally have been able to put together the pieces of your work and have formed a great picture! Your knowledge of this event is to be admired by all!

[tbw]

Mar 22, 2013 19:03:38 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

Outstanding tbw, I finally have been able to put together the pieces of your work and have formed a great picture! Your knowledge of this event is to be admired by all!

And just when you thought I was through... and Martin's story was finished, that I would honestly leave this with about 12 minutes of missing time. Time that's been missing for well over 135 years, and no one knows where it is or where it went to, as if such a phenomenon could really exist... and an important interconnection that not just makes Benteen look like the goombah he really was for trying to make everyone believe that where he met Martin took about those same 12 minutes, that everyone keeps on misplacing since the dawn of this tragedy, to have been exactly where he needed to have been... and was... when he met Martin, and ohhhh... yes indeedy, just as Benteen would have it, it does involve his quote, "two miles" to and fro, not that he exactly lied, you see.

[stumblingbear]

You were certainly on the mark when you titled this message," The incredible story of John Martin!" I would add a sub-title;"the incredible hard work of tbw!

[tbw]

To continue the Maguire map needs to be understood.

The Maguire map used a the COI was one of the most misunderstood tools used for that inquiry. It confounded and befuddled some of those who testified. But just how accurate was it? And are the inaccuracies noted back then used to advantage today when they shouldn't be?

Years ago I blew up a photocopy of the Maguire map so that it should match the scale of a topo map of that same area. This so that I could produce and overlay on top of the topo map the Maguire map and get some semblance of its accuracies or inaccuracies. To do that I had to get some basic information from the topo map that might be used to get some idea of the scale Maguire used on his map. Below were those findings.

Topo map measurements:

mtcf to the end of Bouyer Bluffs up stream = 2 1/2" 4690" 9/10ths of a mile or abt. 1565 yards

from river at the previous point described to point 2 = 1 1/8th" 2123" 2/5ths mile or abt. 700 yards

from point 2 to weir pk = 3/4th" 1600" 1/3rd mile

from weir pk to "D" in the word "command" = 3 1/4" 6100" 1 1/4th mile

mtcf to LSH = 4" = 8000" 1 1/2 mile

Cross correlating this with the Maguire Map and using the same distance between mtcf to the ending of Bouyer Bluffs up stream as the basis for the rest of the mileage we get this.

From ford "B" the end of Bouyer Bluffs up stream is 1" which equals abt. 1565 yards or 9/10ths of a mile.

From the river at the end of Bouyer Bluffs up stream from "B" to point 2 = 3/8th" is 650 yards.

From point 2 to Weir peak = 1 1/8" is 1 mile

from weir peak to reno hill (D in the word command) = 1 3/4th" 1 1/2 miles.

Weir Peak to mctf - 4 1/2" = 1.7 miles

mtcf to LSH = 4 1/2" = 8500" 1 2/3rds mile

Of course the first in each set of data must match to get some semblance of scale on the Maguire map. But what does and doesn't match from there is quite telling.

Topo - from river at the previous point described to point 2 = 1 1/8th" 2123" 2/5ths mile or abt. 700 yards
Maguire - From the river at the end of Bouyer Bluffs up stream from "B" to point 2 = 3/8th" is 650 yards.

Topo - from weir pk to "D" in the word "command" = 3 1/4" 6100" 1 1/4th mile
Maguire - from weir peak to reno hill (D in the word command) = 1 3/4th" 1 1/2 miles.

Topo - mtcf to LSH = 4" = 8000" 1 1/2 mile
Maguire - mtcf to LSH = 4 1/2" = 8500" 1 2/3rds mile

Topo - from point 2 to weir pk = 3/4th" 1600" 1/3rd mile
Maguire - From point 2 to Weir peak = 1 1/8" is 1 mile (2/3rds mile difference)

Topo - Weir Peak to mctf - 3 1/2 = 1.3 miles
Maguire - Weir Peak to mctf - 2" 9390" = 1.75 miles (almost 1/2 mile to much)

Anything over 1/4 mile difference was noted as error. The biggest error being the distance from point 2 to Weir Peak, the Maguire map made it 2/3rds of a mile longer. A test was then made of the distance from Weir Peak to something northward as the distance to the south was only 1/4th of a mile off the mark, it didn't need testing. For that test, mtcf was chosen and the difference again was over 1/4th mile, that distance on the Maguire map representing about 1/2 mile more than it needed to depict.

When the overlay was completed it showed Maguires distortion at the Weir Peak area, and what that tended to do was lengthen the distance to any measurement on downstream. So a further test was added showing that distortion at the greatest variance needed, from Weir Peak to LSH. Below are those findings.

Topo map Weir peak to LSH = 5.25" 2 2/5ths mile
Maguire Weir peak to LSH = 4" = 3.75 miles

And that difference is a little over 1 1/3 miles more for the Maguire map.

This same distortion can be seen also in any measurement East and West from Weir Peak as it does the exact same thing as it does down stream. And is really very difficult to orient any Maguire overlay over the topo map and orient it centered at Weir Peak. The question was and is, was this distortion intentional?

[whitebull]

The way this story is panning out i would say darn tooting, the stretching was on purpose!

[joewiggs]

Okay! Here I go putting my big head in he intersection waiting for a truck to come alone but, I disagree with WB! Now, tbw is absolutely correct about the discrepancy between the maps but, was the error intentional?
McGuire admitted that while responsible for the map was his , others worked on it as well.

Now, is it possible that an advantage of the error was taken by Gilbert and Company? Probably. I'm waiting for the man (tbw) to clue us in. This is one exciting thread for me! ;D