Responsibility along the LBH

[tbw]

Responsibility along the LBH

Whose responsible is perhaps the bane of all who still seek answers that seem impossible to get at what might be true or not. There were of course answers given and just as implausible, not believed. For example Benteen stated that he didn't see any sign of what might have been an organized resistance on Custer's section of the field. In essence his statements totally supported the idealism that there wasn't anything offensively or defensively to support. That it was a complete rout from beginning to end. And what doesn't make sense is that not one other person in attendance that day ever disagreed with him.

Then there are those who would try to bring race into the conversation. They might make a big deal of it and in the same breath accuse Benteen of being to slow and Reno of being a drunk and coward. Most of this evidence is unsubstatieated at best and distracting if not worse. While what needs to be understood a whole lot better is the tactics employed by both sides that led up to the disaster. This that isn't dug out of some old Indian fighting book or manual that would shed more light on what happened there and why. This in spite of efforts to derail the conversation into some kind of effort only Hitler would have appreciated.

What is true in the main is that it was a triple set of small unit maneuvers that's not understood in the full light of Inquiry testimony. Then of course you would have those in supposed military knowledge applying modern terminology to this or that something maneuver that was as Old West as the Gun Fight at the OK Corral, and, just as silly simple. Point. Go there. Find Indians. Pitch in. Is translated as nevermind the pointing, its hearsay. Go where? Must've been somewhere the Indian's weren't. Had to have been... Because... It was a 'SCOUTING' MISSION (find Indians). And Pitch in... what the hell did that mean, they were all out on a "valley hunting" scouting mission, why the need to pitch in if there was no valley? And those in the valley? Well now some modern military term could be used to try to understand something more than need be... say like... advanced guard, flank guard, homey guard etc.... Guard what, Custer's butt? If they were supposed to have done that, they didn't do a damn bit of good at it... as Custer was thinking at the time, somebody move a hell ov a lot faster - will ya, pitch in somewhere, anywhere... anytime soon damn it!


Of course there's those indian accounts and of course some artifacts that can be explained away, as was told, by them taking the troopers uniforms and horses and dressing up like the white man. Of couse they threw away (where I want one of those broken and useless cavalry revolvers) those things that were useless to them only to be found by some achaeologist or vapors inebriated phobe or phile who just happened up on it some time in the future proclaiming Custer was there because it was one of his bulldogs.

There's nothing new here that no one else hasn't thought of before, its just that it isn't as romantic or heroic as most, strike that, all would like to have it be. No, its not verbosely detailed, or none at all, but it is something simple that doesn't make Custer do something silly stupid. Neither does it make an overly incompetent and undertrained 7th do something they should have done as opposed to what they actually did do. And neither does it force Custer to do something safe or sound, and in the proceess apply military logic other than luck should have accounted for.

Sure we all can imagine and draw imaginary non existant temporary skirmish lines as they fell back from the river with the end result that the last 60 or so men made a dash for the top of the hill and about half or so of those made a mad dash moments later to that same direction that the Indians had just chased them from. Make sense yet? If not the officers found there weren't found surrounded by their men and horses, as in save old Iron butt first, last and foremost. This where they should have been, dead center of that defense to direct it, BUT THEY WERE NOT found there. And when you add the top of the hill they sheered off years later to place the monument it becomes abundantly clear what happened. When those troopers topped that hill, those troopers in the lead came under heavy fire and a full fleged counter attack from the coulee on the other side. Many of them, to include the hero Custer, was cut down right there, where Custer was found dead. They went there not because it was the best place to defend, no officer in his right mind ever would have. They went there because they were forced to by the action of the enemy on that ground didn't leave them any choice. The events forced the issue and didn't provide the time required to efficiently and expertly make sound decision and and act upon it.

There are those today who classify themselves as some kind of expert on this subject, they may be knowledgeable, no doubt they are, but they let their assumptions amid imaginations run wild that leads them to believe that it was all Custer's fault, that for this or that imaginary reason that the final bad decision that led to that battalions demise rests squarely upon the shoulders of Custer's full worth as a military commander and reflects badly upon his character and brains. All this without having any benefit of doubt that they don't know it all, and, they never will, because as in all battles since the dawn of time, they all didn't want to die no matter what any military expert says, because its about surviving much more than it is about death and dying, it always has been and always will be. Something there that Benteen in the Old West knew about and told about that was true.

[joewiggs]

This may surprise some folks but, I chose Custer, Reno, and Benteen with the responsibility for the fatal end of this historic battle. Custer, I feel, should not have divided his forces. Like
Fetterman and Brown, he was succumbed by the unproven but widely believe fallacy that Indians would not stand when confronted soldiers.

Had Reno maintained the timber perimeter properly instead of withdrawing to the center he could have maintained his position much longer than he did. Indian penetration into the timber seemed to have occurred simply because Reno's men were disorganized, frightened, and leaderless. Remember, Benteen arrived on Reno's hill while some of Reno's troops were still in the process of ascending the hill.

Benteen knew quite well that Reno was completely unglued and mentally debilitated when he arrived. Benteen also must have known that a "battle" was taken place somewhere and should have responded to the "sound of firing" a philosophy of long standing in the cavalry. When posters allege that Reno and Benteen could not respond because it was too dangerous, i wonder if we are referring to American soldiers or a contingency of Cub Scouts.

I would love to hear someone explain to me why it was reasonable for soldiers to sit on their behinds for a lengthy period of time while their "brothers" were being killed!

I agree with all you have stated particularly the reference to "survival." Men faced with unanticipated death will do anything to survive and live another day. Under specific circumstances, soldiers will become a frightened "mob" of disorganized, wild eyed, discombobulated, harpies screaming for "momma." Circumstances like this occur only when battlefield leadership fails!

Soldiers will fight when led by men they respect! In 1876 these men looked to Reno and saw a someone whose major concern was his own safety.

Hey, welcome back. You have been sorely missed!

[stumblingbear]

For the actual lost of the battle I blame Custer. He was the commander and in charge so responsibility must be his. If only he did not let himself get so convinced that the village was "running" he may not have divided his force by miles which he did. Custer was a brave and outstanding leader that other soldiers were willing to follow him to glory. All leaders are not cut from the same cloth. I wish that Custer had kept that notion ion his mind before giving Reno more responsibility than he could handle.

As for Benteen, he was as strong a leader as Custer but, he thought to much of own opinion and followed it rather than orders. 1 -1-1equaled =disaster.

[tbw]

Most of our opinions are shaded by what we think happened, and most of that is unsubstantiated evidence that is tainted by multiple witnesses saying different things about the same events. And once again all this has been stated before, but I think it has a special merit to it that is lost in our biases and prejudicial opinions. And that is our perceptions being right or wrong in light of evidence that forces a different conclusion. For example it can be fully demonstrated by the evidence given that Reno and his men with Benteen in tow left on their downstream excursion to find Custer no later than some 20 to 30 minutes after their meeting with Benteen. And on that same mission it can be fully demonstrated by the evidence that both Reno and Benteen were at the head of that column and not far from one another the whole distance there - to that most advanced position - and back.

It seems the whole 7th Cavalry that day had a terrible time finding something about their rears to take special notice of that day rather than what was before them. Not one of the 7th's commanders stood and fought. So in that regard it seems all three commanders showed the yellow flag that day, so who should have faulted some junior commander who some made claim did the same thing, AS THEY ALL HAD DONE from private to Lt. Colonel! But I don't think it had as much to do with what Joe refers to as battlefield leadership than something else that made them all scared to death of what they observed. And that quite simply was warriors in such numbers and initiative to clean all their clocks in less time than it took for just one of them to down his lunch - no matter where they were on that battlefield, and that to include the place Reno and Benteen decided to hunker down atop the ridge. They knew, just as the Indians knew, that if the Indians had wanted to, they could have made easy and fast work of it, and there wasn't one thing that Benteen or Reno could have done about it.

Both leadership and respect had been trumped by opposition numbers - and the proper respect they really needed to have paid homage to that day. The real question always has been, and forever always will be - When did the Indians stop running, or, appear to stop running? AND Where was the last observation by Custer of that village and its fleeing occupants really at? Guaranteed it wasn't where people have always and traditionally thought it was, in fact, no where near it, not even the next knoll, ridge or bluff. Its those seriously flawed perceptions that lead us all to erroneous conclusions based upon nothing else than a bias or a prejudice.

Something here worth repeating...

There's nothing new here that no one else hasn't thought of before, its just that it isn't as romantic or heroic as most, strike that, all would like to have it be. No, its not verbosely detailed, or none at all, but it is something simple that doesn't make Custer do something silly stupid. Neither does it make an overly incompetent and undertrained 7th do something they should have done as opposed to what they actually did do. And neither does it force Custer to do something safe or sound, and in the proceess apply military logic other than luck should have accounted for.

Sure we all can imagine and draw imaginary non existant temporary skirmish lines as they fell back from the river with the end result that the last 60 or so men made a dash for the top of the hill - from the South Skirmish Line - the first last and only line ever found in that vicinity - and about half or so of those made a mad dash moments later off LSH to that same direction that the Indians had just chased them from. Make sense yet? Its not confusing its just disorganized, discombobulated and frightening. Its those wild eyes and mob thoughts of preservation, that is all so often overlooked in favor of something more romantic, more heroic that didn't ever happen, no matter how many painters try to place a six shooter in his hand, prop up that dead man and make him do something he never ever did.

It's nor our place blame on things we don't know. Nor should it ever be. I think we're closer to the truth than we've ever been before. But I don't think its my place to say anyone was to blame just yet. Not until someone comes along with sure solid evidence that they didn't all run at one time or another. And not until we're all sure of what they were running from, or for that matter, where to.

Sure today we have so called military experts who make false claims about where Custer and his company's went to, or were sent to, or quote, "dropped off". None of which any of it makes any sense in light of Indians statements equating it to a buffalo hunt that totally refute such notions. And it wont ever make any sense because of their bias in not believing and totally trusting what Benteen's observations of that battlefield told them then. That is was a total and complete rout from beginning to end. One of the most telling is why those 20 to 30 some men vaulted off that hill and seemingly procured safety from the same direction they had just came from, deep ravine. But once again they, as most, totally refuse to read and believe what Benteen had said about that. That those troopers in that deep ravine were found within 100 yards of the river. And, what he left unsaid. That that position would have been some 600 yards from the top of LSH. Once again the painter profiteer got it all wrong. How could such a small group have been ignored for that distance before they were all chased down and dispatched? Oh yeah, I forgot, Custer had "dropped them off" there.

[joewiggs]

It is true that what we understand about an incident is the result of what we believe;incredibly, actually participation in a battle can be, remarkably, as disjointed and misconstrued as the findings of non-participants. In the heat of battle, we see,feel, and respond differently from others. We sometimes remember differently as well.

What we read and what we actually due may be altered by time in like manners depended upon the time that transpire between the actual event and the moment of recall. for example, you say that it has been confirmed that Benteen (with Reno at his side) responded to Custer's location within twenty minutes. I can prove that the supply train did not arrive upon Reno's Hill for at least twenty minutes, some ammunition was distributed, firing was heard by some soldiers while other did not, and that that no one moved Custer for over an hour;Reno being the very last to leave.

What we believe is critical to what we express which, in turn, subjects us to an examination by our peers. Thus, we create an ever flowing and sometimes ever confusing tale that forces us to continuously review all that we remember and that is a good thing!

[whitebull]

I go for Reno! While nobody was exactly outstanding, i can't help but feel that if Reno had not funked out, Benteen could have joined Reno from the hill and done one of two things. Reno and Benteen would have had enough men to hold the Indians in check until Custer came or Benteen and Reno could have backed Custer up but going to where he was fighting.

Either way, the end result would have been different because a complete wipe out Custer could have been avoided!

[joewiggs]

The thing that astounds me more than anything else is the incredible disparity between witnesses who heard the sounds of a battle occurring those who did not.

For example, no one has addressed the fact that out of 16 witnesses who testified at the Reno Inquiry, only three witnesses heard nothing that could have remotely signified that a battle was ensuing several miles away;Reno, Benteen, and Wallacr. Thirteen witnesses did, for example:

"The hard-of-hearing Lieutenant Godfrey recalled only two volleys, but he noted that the firing down river lasted 'a long time.' He stated,'We were satisfied that Custer was fighting the Indians somewhere, and the conviction was expressed that' the command ought to be doing something or Custer would be after Reno with a sharp stick.'

Only one circumstance could prevent these soldiers from moving to the sound of firing;the officer in comman!

Now remember, Reno testified that he had no idea Custer was engaged and fighting for his life How does one explain the following testimony by Reno?:

In response to Weir's foray.

Reno : "I did not think that any one man could through?
Question: through what, there were no Indians to cut through according to Reno.

Reno: "But I thought he[Weir] could cut through with his command.

Again, through what? Custer was not fighting any Indians according to Reno.

it is my opinion that they who wish to find Custer responsible for everything look through ebony tinted glasses when ever statements like the above appear.

Reno sat on his duff while Custer was getting wiped out. Weir, who could stand it no longer, finally moved out thirty minutes later and responded on his own. Reno, subsequently took responsibility for the movement.

No one on this forum or any other for that manner has addressed the discrepancy of the witnesses, Reno's refusal to respond to the "sound of firing" and his subsequent false testimony (under oath) at the inquiry.

The above information is truth, not speculation but, truth confirmed by witness statements.

If there is anyone out there who show me how 13 of 16 witness heard one thing and three did not please post.

If you would kindly show me that Reno led the excursion to succor Custer, please show me.

l

[tbw]

I'm not one to get into an interpretational battle about what these people were trying to convey. And make no mistake about it, I'm not accusing you Joe or anyone here, of any of what I charge others of below, you're in no way in that league of butt lickers. I think we all tend to trip over our biases and prejudices when it comes to figureing out what they actually were saying. Some more than others really fall off that 1000 foot cliff without any hope of a parachute opening, let alone at least half of those forgot to put one on in the first place. In this case I think (nothing for certain there) Godfrey was responding to the 'volley fire' saying that he only heard two. Which is interesting because it was well noted that they only fired one volley and then it was 'fire at will' the rest of the time. When one thinks about this, we tend to compartmentalize this into Custer's whole outfit standing out there somewhere and quite literally 'all' of them all at one time firing those volleys. Isn't this the mental image that is portrayed by those volleys? It actually could have been (again nothing for certain here) two different companys or groups firing at different times and it happened to have been close enough together to have appeared to have came from one single battalion or group of troops. This is what I think it was.

Now pick up on the rest of what Godfrey was saying. He said the 'firing', not volley fire, but the sporadic and staccato burst of rapid firing individual guns firing not in unison, but as they would be expected, 'at will' and for 'some time', which I prefer to the 'long time' that is inserted into the language without explaining how 'long' that could have been or really was. Fifteen or 20 minutes could have been a long time when they were sitting there listening to it, especially after they found out what happened later. Here is where I think we feed into the participants hindsight thoughts about this 3 years after the fact. And we, not they, keep feeding into this until it becomes the myth that has nothing to do with the historical facts of the matter. This is our fault, not theirs. The problem here is, whether anyone believes it or not, is our biases and flawed perceptions keep on feeding myths in favor of a 'look at me, see I'm right, your wrong - know it all' childish attitude by those so enamored with themselves, that if the truth stared them in the face, which it does, they'd make it a lie, and they do, witness the following example...

When Custer sent Reno on his mission near the river, there are those who still believe Reno was sent, just as Reno stated at the COI, to 'attack the village'. But that isn't what the others who were there testified to. All this attack the village shineola comes directly from Reno's statements and no where else. Regardless of this flawed belief the truth is there for all to find and see for themselves. From the Ree's, who said that Custer tried to order them forward, not to attack the village, but to follow and attack the 40 to 50 hostile that had been fleeing from them while progressing down Reno Creek. It was the Rees who said that if they wouldn't stop undressing from their white mans clothes and immediately go after them, obviously time was of the essence here, that he would order Reno's bttn. to go after them instead, which Custer did. Somehow this is all translated into 'attack the village', supposedly because of what Girard later witnessed from some knoll somewhere, some little time later. Just because he said he saw a village, which most if not all who were with Reno said that they didn't see 'all of it' because of intervening trees on their way down to the SL, it is suspect just what Girard saw and supposedly became so excited at on the east side of that river. Having gone there in a been there done that moment in time, I can attest to the fact that if they were where eveyone and their biased horse says and thinks they were when Girard supposedly made that sighting, then Girard had to have been on a huge 200 foot scaffold atop his horse to have witness that village from there.

To top all of this off everyone still believes that someone, anyone at all was supposed to have quote, 'supported Reno'. Who? Who was said to have have supported anything about Reno's move? Who? Who Reno said, who Wallace said, who Girard said... ad nauseum. Just remember about this what Reno said in his 'official report'. To paraphrase, to wit, that it was quite natural for Custer to have gone downstream and for him to secure a crossing there and that by doing so that it would support the action in some well laid out plan, a plan that Reno testified to, saying, that it never existed.

'and charge the village afterwards'... "afterwards" of what Herr Reno?

[joewiggs]

Your thesis is (as usual) is on the money and makes perfect sense. I have been trying to seperate my personal feelings from the 'facts" of the battle here of late to avoid the pitfalls you have so accurately described. I believe I'm now on the right track arguing that Reno is not the vilest soldier who ever existed although his battle decisions were (I think) deplorable.

Accordingly, we as students of the battle must be careful at what we read and translate so as not to distort the facts. Something I feel that both of us have ardently tried to do.

You mention Godfrey's statement regarding the hearing or not hearing of "volley's" coming from the direction of Custer's battle field. I believed Godfrey said," I heard firing." The Reno Court of Inquiry by Graham, page #176, does agree with you:

According to Benteen, "I have heard no officers disputing about hearing volleys. I heard no volleys!"...that's pretty emphatic!

Then there's Reno: "I heard no firing from down river till after we moved out in that direction and then only a few scattering shots." Depending on who's work you read Reno heard not a sound of battle for up to one hour and a half!
Let us not forget Wallace:"Whether their [Custer]. I heard none."


The information of these three officers (including Godfrey) conclude little or no firing. Should this not end the disagreement of facts?

Churchill: "I heard no firing for about one and a half hours;then heard it down the river. I took it to be volleys and spoke of it to some of the men. I heard four or five volleys. it seemed to be 21/2 to 3 miles away."

Sgt. Culbertson: We heard firing from down below. At first it was a couple of volleys, very heavy."


Sgt. Davern: Shortly after reaching the top I heard volley firing.

Lt. DeRudio: "I could hear immense volleys on the other side of the village. the fire lasted probably an hour and a half."

Lt. Edgerly: "Shortly after I got on the hill, almost immediately, I heard firing and remarked it--heavy firing, by volleys.


Thus far, the five witnesses specifically used the term"volley(s) to describe what Benteen, Reno, and Wallace did not hear! later, I will submit additional witnesses who will also testify to the same.

As a retire Police officer, six years a Detective, while achieving the rank of Captain, I can vouch for the following : What we remember and/or report about an incident is is in direct correlation of our involvement (good or bad) with that event.

Reno and Benteen could not report the sound of "volleys" without making an admission of not responding to those sounds;a Court-martial offense!

Yet, there are individuals who will argue until the cows come home that no volleys occurred because Reno and Benteen said so. Wallace had no reason to do what he did other than the chance of promotion which he received. In a historical era wherein promotions were far and few between (not counted in months but years) Wallace's good luck was,indeed, fortunate.

Therein lies my inability to comprehend those individual you have spoken of who insist that Custer was wiped out before Reno reached the summit of the hill or shortly there after.

In conclusion, what reason did the "volley" hearers have to resort to falsehood? What was their reward? Nothing, zilch, de nada, except to be labeled, "liars" or disregarded,defamed, or ignored by some students.

I personally am familiar with a student who believes Edgerly to be an epiome of an Officer and a Gentleman; a conclusion I partially adhere too. She also believes every statement he has uttered is factual except the one I have listed above. The reason? It contradicts with Benteen therefore, in this instance, Edgerly must have been mistaken. I guess we all must draw our own conclusions.

[whitebull]

I have to admit that this info. is new to me because I've never seen it put together like that. How could so many men hear loud shooting and only three didn't? I understans what you meant about "motive" in telling what you know is backed up by how you acted.

I'm gonna pick up the book you wrote about for myself. Hard to believe that this happened. It seems like Renmo and benteen had the time to help but just didn't do it. Could it have been because of the wounded? That would make sense to me. You can't leave then behind and you can't take them with you. Reno for sure was a little shakey but Benteen was the man. Why wouldn't he help Custer out? He had three companies that hadn't been scratched!

What a mess!!!

[joewiggs]

W.B., the book is "The Reno Court of Inquiry" by W.A. Graham. Col. Graham is noted for writing a most "even-keel" approach to the battle falling into neither the "Custerphobe" nor the "Custerphile" approach. His contribution to the understanding of the battle is beyond reproach.

It is a condensed and reader friendly work. Col. Graham emphatically states that the officers did not "lie" at the Inquiry. My theory that all men, under the correct circumstances, and prompted by sufficient motive will "lie" to save their reputation and honor. I continue with the list:

Girard:
"And I heard firing to the left of the village; 3 or 4 volleys as if there were 50 to 100 guns at a volley."

Lt. Hare:
Also I heard firing down there just after Benteen came up. My attention was called to it by capt. Godfrey. He asked if I "heard that volley"
[which indicates that Godfrey heard it as well] I said "yes I heard two distinct volleys." That was just before I started for the pack train!

(to be continued)


This important information from Lt. Hare sets the time of the volleys (before he started for the pack trains) until Weir's movement;approximately 1 1/2 hours later!!! This vital clue as to what happened at the big Horn could not be allowed to be known to the general public or many "heads" would have surely rolled. heads much further up the Chain-of-Command than just Custer.

[tbw]

"until Weir's movement;approximately 1 1/2 hours later!!!"

This is another one of those myths that keeps on going like some kind of everyready bunny. At worst that pack train arrived there about 1/2 hour later, not an hour and a half later as Benteen would have us believe. It took Hare about 20 minutes, ROUND TRIP to go to that pack train and back!!! And those ammo packs he requested were right on his heels, eating his dust! That pack train wasn't over 1 & 1/2 miles from them when Hare was sent, not the 7 Benteen reported.

Did Benteen lie? Not really, one has to know exactly what he was saying, and like he said after the RCOI, even they couldn't get it out of him.

[tbw]

Sept 1, 2013 14:10:15 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

Your thesis is (as usual) is on the money and makes perfect sense. I have been trying to seperate my personal feelings from the 'facts" of the battle here of late to avoid the pitfalls you have so accurately described. I believe I'm now on the right track arguing that Reno is not the vilest soldier who ever existed although his battle decisions were (I think) deplorable.

Accordingly, we as students of the battle must be careful at what we read and translate so as not to distort the facts. Something I feel that both of us have ardently tried to do.

You mention Godfrey's statement regarding the hearing or not hearing of "volley's" coming from the direction of Custer's battle field. I believed Godfrey said," I heard firing." The Reno Court of Inquiry by Graham, page #176, does agree with you:

According to Benteen, "I have heard no officers disputing about hearing volleys. I heard no volleys!"...that's pretty emphatic!

Then there's Reno: "I heard no firing from down river till after we moved out in that direction and then only a few scattering shots." Depending on who's work you read Reno heard not a sound of battle for up to one hour and a half!
Let us not forget Wallace:"Whether their [Custer]. I heard none."


The information of these three officers (including Godfrey) conclude little or no firing. Should this not end the disagreement of facts?

Churchill: "I heard no firing for about one and a half hours;then heard it down the river. I took it to be volleys and spoke of it to some of the men. I heard four or five volleys. it seemed to be 21/2 to 3 miles away."

Sgt. Culbertson: We heard firing from down below. At first it was a couple of volleys, very heavy."


Sgt. Davern: Shortly after reaching the top I heard volley firing.

Lt. DeRudio: "I could hear immense volleys on the other side of the village. the fire lasted probably an hour and a half."

Lt. Edgerly: "Shortly after I got on the hill, almost immediately, I heard firing and remarked it--heavy firing, by volleys.


Thus far, the five witnesses specifically used the term"volley(s) to describe what Benteen, Reno, and Wallace did not hear! later, I will submit additional witnesses who will also testify to the same.

As a retire Police officer, six years a Detective, while achieving the rank of Captain, I can vouch for the following : What we remember and/or report about an incident is is in direct correlation of our involvement (good or bad) with that event.

Reno and Benteen could not report the sound of "volleys" without making an admission of not responding to those sounds;a Court-martial offense!

Yet, there are individuals who will argue until the cows come home that no volleys occurred because Reno and Benteen said so. Wallace had no reason to do what he did other than the chance of promotion which he received. In a historical era wherein promotions were far and few between (not counted in months but years) Wallace's good luck was,indeed, fortunate.

Therein lies my inability to comprehend those individual you have spoken of who insist that Custer was wiped out before Reno reached the summit of the hill or shortly there after.

In conclusion, what reason did the "volley" hearers have to resort to falsehood? What was their reward? Nothing, zilch, de nada, except to be labeled, "liars" or disregarded,defamed, or ignored by some students.

I personally am familiar with a student who believes Edgerly to be an epiome of an Officer and a Gentleman; a conclusion I partially adhere too. She also believes every statement he has uttered is factual except the one I have listed above. The reason? It contradicts with Benteen therefore, in this instance, Edgerly must have been mistaken. I guess we all must draw our own conclusions.

"I guess we all must draw our own conclusions."

I wouldn't be so quick to say that... Consider this....

The way history is told today, Martin had to have been in two places at the very same moment in time. And there is no way out of it according to the way the timing is believed to be today." And how does this work out? When those who propose that Martin's sightings & his departure from Custer and those concurrent sightings of Reno's men in the valley was anywhere from the near environs of Reno Hill to the near environs of Weir
Peak, they start a cascade of events that could only be described as a paradox, Martin being in two places as the very same moment in time. Creating one of these is like trying to create time travel, yet for over 135 years that's whats been believed about this battle when it comes to those sightings, both from the bluffs and from the valley to the bluffs in an attempt to understand what was seen where.

Curly said, to paraphrase, that Custer was running at the same time the Crows and Reno's men were running. And this one statement is significant to understand what could or couldn't have been. Martin testified that it took him about 5 to 10 minutes to get back to that same hill after Cooke gave him the dispatch. In an interview with Camp, Martin said that when he looked back at where Custer was, this about the time he arrived
at the same place they looked down on the village on his way back, he said that he saw the Indians waving blankets and ambushing Custer. Was his statements concerning this credible or incredible?

It wasn't over 5 to 10 minutes and after haveing travelled about a third of a mile to the river, Custer after fighting briefly, which is the story time and time again, he retreated from the river, and eveyone knows the rest of this story. So Curley's observation of Custer at that time, and when and where Martin's sighting of the same not only make perfect sense as they state it, it was what happened. That the Crows were running at the same time is entirely believeable, and their story is told in the Arikara Narratives that support this happening at the same time as they were told to leave and not engage the warriors. After they fired their shots into the village from the bluffs, as they told it, they left. Not only did they leave they had to high tail (RUN!) it about 3 miles downstream, not far from Reno hill for Benteen to meet them there where and when he claimed he met them and what they saw Reno and his men doing at that time, which was in retreat about half way from where they had fought to the bluffs they were scampering to.

But, and its rather a huge one, but, there's one thing in this surround story that isn't, doesn't and wont ever make one lick of sense, nor will it agree with any of those who were with Reno in the valley at that time, no matter how they tell their stories about what happened down there. And how is that? "Custer's men were running at the same time the Crows and RENO'S MEN WERE RUNNING!" Lt. Varnum's observation of the white horse's behind point two was made at the time Reno's skirmish line set up. THis sighting was made right below Weir peak, within a quarter mile north of it. From Weir peak to the point where Custer sent Martin back (600 yards from ford "b") was and still is just shy of a mile by about 100 yards. Custer's speed at that time was clocked at about 11 mph, this of course being, on the average'. Figureing just this average, it would have taken no longer that 4 minutes for them to have gone that distance. And as Martin testified that Custer didn't stop to help with the message it would have taken no longer for Custer to have arrived at ford "b" in anything over 2 minutes from where he left Martin. Total time from 'behind point 2' to the ford for Custer's bttn. wasn't any longer than 6 minutes. This same 6 minutes back to Weir peak, the much percieved place some people think where the "same hill" is, is what it would have taken for Martin to have rode back to it. So the elapsed time between the two is the 2 minutes it took Custer to go to the ford, less Martin's time of 6 minutes from that point they departed back to Weir peak. This being an elapsed time of about 4 minutes (the total time Custer spent at that ford) when Martin said he would have looked back and observed Custer's bttn in ambush after leaving them.

These 10 minutes seem to be an eternity to some, but it wasn't. From the time Varnum sighted the white horse troop to the time Custer attacked at that ford would have been an elapsed time of 6 minutes. 4 more minutes there at the ford and then they were on the run. Custer's men were running at the same time Reno's men were running at the same time the Crows were running, just as Curley said.

F. Girard was no military man, he and Charlie Reynolds just didn't understand what was taking place about 10 to 20 minutes after they had set up that SL. Reynolds saying "what fool move is this" in regards to the maneuvers they were performing. It is known that about 10 to 20 minutes after they set that SL up that Reno took one of the troops and placed them in the woods due to the flanking moves by the Indians on their right flank.

At the same time and to compensate for the loss of that company the SL shifted in what seemed to Girard to be quite literally changing places and evidently on the move to the timbers edge by the river. And Curley's observation of that made it seem they were as he put it 'on the run.' But were they? Did they stop there and wait longer, or as Girard, DeRudio and a few others said keep right on going from there through the timber to the bluffs?

So was there an attempt to ford at ford "b", was there any fighting there at all? According to Girard, not anything substantial because he stated that he didn't hear any firing "down there" where Custer went to until about 15 minutes after Reno had retreated towards the bluffs, this being about the time he had arrived there. But there is this little matter of sightings to consider, namely Varnum's sighting of Custer back of point 2 when Reno's SL set up. This timing eliminates Custer doing much if anything at all at ford "B".

If Custer's objective was one of the other fords on downstream of "B", lets assume Cheyenne ford at the base of Deep Ravine, it was about 3 miles on from where Varnum sighted him and would have taken about 18 minutes after Reno's SL setup and at an average speed of 11 mph to have arrived there. Does this 18 minutes, of course not written in solid stone, resemble or seem close enough in time to someone elses statement about another event elsewhere? Its uncannily close enough to Reno's 20 minutes of the SL "hot firing" statement to give credibility to the timing he stated and what Varnum observed and where when that SL set up.

Insert Girards statement that he heard the volleys and heavy firing downstream about 15 minutes after Reno retreated and that places Reno on the bluffs about 41 minutes after he set up his SL in the valley.

Insert Benteens statement that when they arrived there on the bluffs they observed Reno's men about half-way - from where the 12 to 13 men at the woods edge were being overran - to the top of the bluffs. And when Reno's men were observed 1/2 way, Benteen was with the Crows who had began their run back at the same time Custer and Reno were running, which meeting with Benteen would have been about 7 - 8 minutes after the 26 minutes time established when Martin observed them running from "that same hill" The earliest time that could be established, and it places Benteen on those bluffs 33 to 34 minutes after Reno's SL set up.

Taking the elapsed time of 6 minutes from Martins ride back to that "same hill", we now know from Martins statement that he observed Reno's men in retreat from that "same hill" at about the 26 minute mark since Reno's SL set up. Insert this: Total time from the "same hill" to the ford for Custer's bttn. wasn't any longer than 6 minutes. This same 6 minutes back to the "same hill" is what it would have taken for Martin to have rode back to it. So the elapsed time between the two is the 2 minutes it took Custer to go to the ford, less Martin's time of 6 minutes from that point they departed each other back to that "same hill". This being an elapsed time of about 4 minutes (the total time Custer spent at that ford) when Martin said he would have looked back and observed Custer's bttn in ambush after leaving them. This being about the 26 minute mark after Reno had set up his SL. Insert Curley; to paraphrase, that Custer was running at the same time the Crows and Reno's men were running.

What all this means is rather simple. It took the Crows no longer than 7 to 8 minutes to get back to where they met Benteen! Think about this, not just the distance and the MPH it would have taken for them to have done that, because guess who was with Benteen when he met those Crows? None other than John Martin, who had seen "from that same hill" not over 7 to 8 minutes prior - Reno's men in retreat. Impossible, think again... This story only gets better... Believe me, the truth is stranger than the fiction produced all these years and a whole lot more exciting, thrilling than all the fiction books on this ever produced, or to be produced.... Stay tuned.

This is the timing marks produced by the research above. It is by no means set in stone, as you'll soon see. But its not far off the mark. I use the 1pm time when Reno retreats, easier that way and besides, more close to what the Indians claimed was true.

12:34 Reno sets up SL in valley, Custer observed behind Pt.2 (near Weir PK.) by Varnum
12:50 Martin sent back with Message to Benteen
12:52 Custer arrives at one of the fords downstream of "b".
12:54 End of heavy firing on Reno's SL.
12:56 Custer's bttn. in retreat back towards battle ridge. Martin see's Reno's retreat And Custer's from the "same hill"
1:00 Reno leaves the valley
1:04 Benteen with Crows & Martin on the bluffs sees Reno retreat in progress
1:15 Reno arrives on the bluffs. Benteen is on the bluffs, joins Reno. Firing is heard downstream. Many of the Indians leaves Reno and are observed hurrying downstream. Girard confirms this was the time he also heards the volleys and firing downstream.


PS Joe, you might want to print this post and the next one to a hard copy for our journey next year. OH, and don't forget to check your pm's.

[tbw]

There is of course at this moment in time only one way to pursue the answers that everyone has tried to answer since this battle's end. To work from both ends of the Reno valley fight. And there are three contenders for liar of the month club - in spades - on steroids when looking at the beginning and the end of what took place, and when - before, during and after Reno's SL had set up, retreated and beyond. Lt. Varnum, F. Girard and Lt. Derudio. They of necessity must be put back on the witness bench and thoroughly questioned as to the truthfulness of their COI testimony concerning what they saw on the bluffs AND WHEN while Reno's men were in the valley.

We begin with F. Girard.

Like his compatriots, Girard claims to have witnessed Custer's happy troops on the bluffs just prior to Reno taking troop G into the timber. This sighting supposedly at, or near, Reno's hill. Just how dependable was this sighting?

In linear fashion from Reno's hill to LSH is about 4 & 2/3rds miles, from there to the one of the fords about another 1/3rd of a mile. If Custer's troops were where Girard said they were and they didn't bother to stop off at MTCF, and Custers troops travelled there at an average rate of 11 mph, how long would it have taken them to have arrived at one of those fords? - About 28 minutes. And if they did stop off at MTCF? - About 32 minutes.

Since it was stated by all who heard the firing downstream, that this event had occurred about 10 to 15 minutes after Reno's retreat from the valley, and by those with Reno on the hill - at about 5 to 10 minutes after Reno's arrival there. This 28 to 32 minutes of travel time downstream for Custer and his men, and the increased focus upon the true nature of that ride, makes what Reno and his men did in the valley of supreme importance in finding the truth.

NOTE: The maximum gait a unit could travel without becoming so disorganized as to make the move totally useless, was stated in an official army ordinance manual of the time to have been from 10 to 13 miles per hour. Which essentially was a 'lope' or a slow gallop. To believe that Custer's average speed going downstream was at any time less than 10 mph, or for that matter over 13, becomes problematic and would rely more upon rumors and innuendo than the truth of what those who rode with Custer downstream that day testified and stated was true. So, even at the slowest average rate, 10 mph, what would that time be for both sets of data as presented above? Respectively, 30 minutes and 34. And for the fastest, 13 mph? Respectively 23 minutes and 27.

The longest time stated for Reno's men in the valley, to include the time it took them to ride there, fight and retreat was Wallace's estimate of 1 and 1/2 hours, with a total time of about 45 minutes of that being on the SL. And there are those that would have us believe it took Custer that same amount of time to go downstream as well. That average time being a whopping 3.3 mph walk for Custer and his men as they travelled from Reno's hill to where they were found dead!

There are those today, who believe, for a want of a better reason than that those who rode with Custer had lied. And that for some idiotic reason Custer quote "stopped" to observe what was going on with Reno and his bttn. when those who rode with him emphatically stated that he didn't stop. That is, except for one man who didn't testify at the RCOI that he did what he said he had done elsewhere, and for different reasons had lied about it. That man being none other than John Martin, who never ever claimed at the RCOI that he and Custer ever did anything remotely and independently together, like depart the battn. go to some spot somewhere and "stop" to see something about something somewhere else, no matter what it was. No where in the RCOI will you see, observe or find Martin making any such claim. In point of fact, he denied that ever had happened. Rumor, lies and innuendo which is still believed and wrote about with idyllic reverence today.

Both Lt. Hare and Sgt. Davern both testified that they had rode out in the left front of Reno's troops, about 200 yards as they moved to contact and before the SL had deployed. And, get this, they both stated, like Varnum who was out there at about the same range (Varnum made mention of being with Hare, but didn't say who else was there), that when they stopped to deploy the SL that they turned around and went back.

Varnum made claim that when he arrived there, just as the SL was deploying that he looked up at about pt. 2 on Maguire's map and saw some members of the white horse troop passing there. Enough about that, which will be discussed later. Because what both Hare and Davern tesitifed to was that when they had returned that the SL had already retreated to the edge of the woods! And was at that time, to paraphrase, 'at the edge of the timber'.

Varnum then stated this, "I was on the line about 15 minutes and then went into the
timber as I stated before. When I came out I was only on the line 3 or 4 minutes and I did not pay very much attention to it. There was very heavy firing going on on both sides: I was lying in the edge of the woods with Girard and Reynolds and was anxious to get a drink out of Girard's flask, and was paying more attention to that than to the Indians.

Went in 15 min. after SL set up. "Came out" -after 3-4 min. on the line with Girard and Reynolds for a total time of 18 to 19 minutes. Yet he stated as a pure guess that the total time was about 30 minutes before they retreated to the bluffs. Reno made the same statements by innuendo. He stated that the 'hot firing' of the skirmish line lasted about 20 minutes. And then gives the impression that it might have been another 10 minutes 'standing there on his horse' watching while his companies formed for the 'charge' out of there. What is interesting is Varnum's statements concerning that 18 to 19 minute time frame as it is near enough to other participants statmments concerning the total time the SL was there before Reno begins his retreat.

Girard stated that he, Herendeen, Reynolds, Porter, and BLOODY KNIFE were all together at point 1 behind the skirmish line as and after it had formed. Herendeen stated that he was there behind that open skirmish line at pt. 1 about 6 to 7 minutes before they decided to take their horses into the timber and tying them. He stated that it took him about 5 minutes to do that and come back up to the same brow of the hill that he had went entered. He then stated that he stayed there yet another 6 to 7 mintes firing at some 20 to 25 Indians that had flanked the line and were hurrying towards the edge of the woods where he was at. It was during this 6 to 7 minutes that the Skirmish line fire stopped and he then went back into the timber to see what was going on.

Using the minimums and maximums here is Herendeen's total time.
17 min earliest time before he goes back to find out why the SL fire had stopped.
19 min. Latest time before he goes back to find out why the SL fire had stopped.

Herendeen's further comments suggest that after he had gone back and joined Reno, and within but a few minutes of that time was when Bloody Knife was shot. And it was at that moment in time when Reno's retreat to the bluffs began. What is obvious is that Bloody Knife wasn't with Reno when that confict began, but was with him and likely part of the reason why the retreat had happened. Also Bloody knife seems to have dissappeared after their trek into the timber about 8 to 9 minutes after the SL had set up. He didn't go with Herendeen and he isn't mentioned in Girard's or Varnums statements concerning their time with the flask in the timber before their withdrawal. He isn't seen again until Herendeens observation which had occurred at minimum some 10 minutes later.

Girard had stated to the court that the SL on the open plain had stayed there for about 10 minutes, and the same amount of time for it in the timber, remaining in the timber for about 10 minutes before the retreat to the bluffs began. THis total time, 20 minutes, is not that far off from Herendeen's own estimates of time, 17 to 19 when the SL fire stopped and he went back to see why for us to start coalescing this into something that only could have been true. How so?

DeRudio stated that the Skirmish line in the open lasted 10 to 12 minutes before it retreated into the timber. He, like the others stated an exact same time for them in the timber, 10 to 12 minutes, before the retreat to the bluffs began. The total time for his scenario... 20 to 24 total minutes on the SL before the retreat to the bluffs began.
And, he wasn't alone in this time estimate, its just stated a little different, which will become obvious to us a little later on. Enter Lt. VArnum when he stated that he went into the timber 15 min. after SL set up. And he "Came out" -after 3-4 min. on the line with Girard and Reynolds (flask time) for a total time of 18 to 19 minutes.

Are all these men wrong as to the time it was before they retreated? Not likely. The estimates ran from 17 minutes to 24 minutes after the SL had set up. And they all stated a time near enough to the Reno stated 20 minutes of "hot firing" time that to disbelieve it is sheer lunacy.

When Varnum was asked how far and how long it it took for the advance of Reno's men to reach the bluffs from where they retreated he estimated 3/4ths of a mile back to the river where they crossed, and another 400 yards up the bluffs slope. Which translated is about 1 mile and which he stated took they only about 7 to 8 minutes to traverse.

The total time from SL setup for Reno to reach the bluffs? 27 to 28 minutes! How do we know this time is correct? 5 to 10 minutes after their arrival there, just as those who were there told us, that firing down stream happened. So at the earliest, that 5 minutes estimate that firing occurred would have been 32 to 33 minutes after Reno's SL had set up.

We end where we began:

We begin with F. Girard.

Like his compatriots, Girard claims to have witnessed Custer's happy troops on the bluffs just prior to Reno taking troop G into the timber. This sighting supposedly at, or near, Reno's hill. Just how dependable was this sighting?

In linear fashion from Reno's hill to LSH is about 4 & 2/3rds miles, from there to the one of the fords about another 1/3rd of a mile. If Custer's troops were where Girard said they were and they didn't bother to stop off at MTCF, and Custers troops travelled there at an average rate of 11 mph, how long would it have taken them to have arrived at one of those fords?

- About 28 minutes.

And if they did stop off at MTCF? - About 32 minutes.

Since it was stated by all who heard the firing downstream, that this event had occurred about 10 to 15 minutes after Reno's retreat from the valley, and by those with Reno on the hill - at about 5 to 10 minutes after Reno's arrival there. This 28 to 32 minutes of travel time downstream for Custer and his men, and the increased focus upon the true nature of that ride, makes what Reno and his men did in the valley of supreme importance in finding the truth.

Are we there yet? Not quite, stay tuned.

[tbw]

There is for sure one thing that must be when it comes to trying to time all events out in this battle. And that is the times stated by those with Reno in the valley can't be any less nor any more than what they said it was. And in lock step with what Reno's men in the valley stated, for those who rode with Custer and survived, not to be any more, nor any less than the rate of speed they all stated Custer and his troops took down that right bank. DeRudio, Girard, Herendeen and Varnum's testimony all point to a time that was 1) 10 - 12 minutes from Reno's SL setup until they had retreated into the woods. And. 10 - 12 minutes for the SL in the timber upon which at the end of they immediately began their retreat to the bluffs. This time, when added to Varnum's total retreat time of 7 to 8 minutes places Reno atop those bluffs from 27/28 to 31/32 minutes after the SL set up.

IN complete accord with this is the timing from when and where Girard said he saw Custer's troops on the bluffs, near Reno's Hill, at about 8 to 9 minutes after the SL had set up. That time from near Reno's hill to when they arrived at one of the lower fords, taking them from 28 to 32 minutes. This figured at an 11 mph lope (slow gallop) gait matches what those who rode Custer said, as it matches almost precisely the same time, 28 to 32 minutes traveling time for them to have arrived at that lower ford.

Sound right?

From SL setup, no.

It was 8 to 9 minutes after the SL had set up when Girard observed those troops on the bluffs at or near Reno's Hill. This means that Custer's troops would have arrived at that lower ford some 8 to 9 minutes after Reno had arrived atop the bluffs. The earliest time for Custer to be there was 27 minutes + 8 & 9 respeciveley would have been at 35/36 minute time mark from SL set up. The latest time would have been at the 40/41 time mark from SL setup. In either event that 8 to 9 minute time frame fits when those on the bluffs and Girard/DeRudio in the bottom said they heard those volleys being fired downstream, ie. from 5 to 10 minutes after Reno made his arrival there, which 8 to 9 minutes fits within. Make sense?

So far this timing has proven impeccible. But will it still hold up without moving the goal posts so the field goal kicker can't miss his score?

Lt. DeRudio:

He doesn't seem to have been the Linebacker type. But lets see if he sways anyone, including ref's. into moving those goal posts by crying foul or a instead convincing non-penalty block.

DeRudio made it clear that when he saw Custer and Cooke atop the bluff that it was 4 minutes later when the retreat to the bluffs began. And he should have known, because he couldn't stop or control his men from leaving. So 4 minutes should not be mistaken for 14 or 24. There have been proposals over the years where DeRudio's sighting might have been. But if this timing, as previously proposed here is right, then when he said he made that sighting and where DeRudio made his sighting should be able to fit within it. Does it?

Again, we'll work at this from both ends. SL setup & Reno's arrival on the hill.

Varnums estimate of 7 to 8 minutes duration for the retreat + DeRudio's 4 minutes before it did retreat means that his sighting event happened 11 to 12 minutes before Reno had arrived on the hill. And, it also means that his sighting event happened 19 to 21 minutes before the volley firing downstream happened. From the earliest time as researched above, the 35/36 minute mark for Custer to have arrived downstream and where that earliest time that it could have possibly been heard would have happened 15 to 16 minutes earlier than it did, according to this timing. And at the latest 40/41, would have meant that Custer's heavy volley fire would have occurred 24/25 minutes before it did, according to this timing.

In the first instance the earliest, 15 to 16 minutes before would mean that Reno arrived on the hill 12 to 15 minutes after the sL had set up!

In the 2nd instance 19 to 21, they'd have heard the volley firing downstream 23 to 25 minutes after the sL had set up!

Plausible? In several instances noted below.

Varnum and his compatriots (Hare & Davern) out front of the mounted and galloping SL noted several anomolies in their timing. Only if these anomolies meant what I think they might mean, does DeRudio's time make any sense in this abbreviated version of a time line.

Varnum testified that he rode back to the timber after the SL had set up, yet, DeRudio, Girard and Herendeen made statements that said the open SL only lasted from 10 min (Girard, Herendeen) to 12 minutes (Derudio). Did Varnum stay longer, like from 4 to 5 minutes longer before retreating into the timber? This does make a certain amount of sense, the maneuver into the timber might have taken them that long to perform, so while his statments seems out of line, it might not be. Also Davern and Hare confirmed each others statements about what they did. Both claimed that when they got back from their 200 yard ahead of the SL foray, that the Skirmish line had already been withdrawn to the timber. Does it really take 15 minutes, or for that matter 10 minutes to go back 200 yards where Varnum made claim he did as that SL set up? There seems to be one recurring theme to the firing that was going on at that time as evidenced by Herendeen's statements about that firing. They were slow firing, about a round a minute. Not that the men on the Skirmish line were, but that they (those not on SL) were. Davern testified and Hare confirmed that he, Davern had fired about 3 to 4 shots at some Indians about 300 yards distance from where they were. This before going back to the SL. That indicates that they might have been out there firing at them for about 4 to 5 minutes or so before they retreated back to the SL. This still doesn't account for the other 5 (Girard, Herendeen) to 10 (Varnum) minutes it took them to get back to observe that SL in the timber.

Still if we use their statements in accord with Varnum's, that 15 minutes it took him to get to the timber after the SL had set up seems to make sense if that retreat into the timber (15 minutes) was when DeRudio spys Custer on the hill. And then 4 minutes later they begin their retreat to the hill. Does this seem right? Well maybe. Both Hare and Davern stated that when they got there the "left of the SL" was already in the timber. They also stated that they stopped there and fired off yet another 3 to 4 rounds (4-5 min) before being called to their horses and they began their "run" to the bluffs. If it was this way, then DeRudio's statements means something about the veracity of Varnum's, Hare's and Davern's statements concerning when that time could have been.

Can Varnum's further testimony be helpful in this? It seems so, because while Davern and Hare had stopped 4 to 5 minutes on the "left of the firing line" to fire their shots, he, Varnum had traveled further to the where the right of the SL lay. This being where Girard testifed he and Reynolds were. Here it seems that flask had a certain draw that day, as Varnum stated he stayed there about 3 to 4 minutes with them, more interested in the flask than the fight when the retreat to the hills began. If the traverse time for Varnum to the right of the SL took about 2 minutes, which can be proven* that it did, then those 20 minutes of the SL firing (both in and out of the woods) testified by all to be the right time still makes sense! AS Varnums time before that retreat began still adds up to about 20 minutes, the same 20 minutes everyone else comes up with, to include Reno, Varnum, Girard, Herendeen and DeRudio. And if this is the case, which no doubt it was, then DeRudio observed Custer 15 minutes after the SL had set up AND 11 to 12 minutes before Reno arrived on the bluffs, and some 19 to 21 minutes before they heard the heavy volley fire downstream.

Note: * Herendeen testified that it took him about 5 minutes to go down into the timber and then come back out to where he fended off some 20 to 25 Indians before he went back to see why the SL firing had died. That 5 minutes, as arbitrary as it was, then is halved to find out the half way distance (this being when and where he tied his horse) before making his way back out (2 1/2 minutes). This two and one half minutes then becomes the traverse time across the open glade to the right of the skirmish line where Girard, Reynold and ultimately Varnum all ended up together.

So, how does all this affect the timeline so far established? NIL. But, what it does do is eliminate DeRudio's "12 minutes" for the SL inside and out and leaves only the 10 minutes for each as testified to by he everyone else.

If none of this affects the timeline, then just where could have DeRudio have seen Custer and Cooke?

If DeRudio sights Custer 15 minutes after the SL had set up. And if Girard sighted the troops on the bluffs at "d" in the word command, about Reno Hill, then He would have sighted Custer 6-7 minutes after Girard made that sighting at Reno Hill. From Reno hill to the much tauted 3411 is about 1/4th mile. If it was there, then it only took Custer to continue on about 1 1/2 minute where he would have had to have stayed there gawking for more than a minute, in fact 3 & 1/2 minutes before DeRudio should have witnessed it. This would have been the earliest opportunity, but it doesn't match what those who were with Custer stated was done on that ride. IN fact the last place Custer could have been seen was about 1.1 to 1.3 miles downstream from Reno hill. Where he would have been standing not for over a minute longer to have gone on downstream to present the firing that was later heard when it should have been and was indeed heard and not one minute, let alone 3 and 1/2 minutes to late. "at a gallop all the way" -- "on the jump, didn't stop" etc.

Just one question: Is this timing right? Or. Is this just all an illusion? What do any of you think?

Are we there yet?
Not quite, stay tuned, the best is yet to come...