|
|
Post by joewiggs on Feb 10, 2011 11:08:40 GMT -5
Scouts are paid to scout and not to shout and scream "here we are Souix"! The Indians as the trails indicated were staight ahead and to the north of Reno Creek. Why would you splinter your troops to the left when scouts who know the land and get paid for stealth could check it out ? Poor tactics and huge blunder by Custer in my opinion which led to him and 5 of his companies eradicated. Custer fought but he didn't fight smart in my opinion. Bless them and the dead Indians. Apparently you do not realize that Custer did not know the exact location of the village until he actually saw it! Due to signs, he surmised the general vicinity. As he moved forward, a group of warriors (50 or so) were seen fleeing away from the "Lone Tepee" toward the general location of the main village. At this point, he directs Reno to pursue this group. His fear of other splinter groups is what prompted his to order Benteen to the left earlier. If Benteen were to encounter Indians he would, of course, need a large enough contingent to corral them. One or two scouts would not have been able to do this would they? |
|
|
|
Post by crazycanuck on Feb 10, 2011 11:47:34 GMT -5
"If Benteen were to encounter Indians" but he didn't, because there were none to encounter(and he should of done his job properly and known this long before where he was now).The scouts should of been sent and not Benteen in my opinion and return with either a message that reports back with the message there are no Indians or there are Indians, meanwhile Custer keeps his forces together. As far as the 50 warriors heading for the camp,so what ,what are they going to do,warn the village, and the city of Indians dissapears before your eyes. Custer in my opinion wasn't prepared for a serious battle,he wanted it to be easy.If he wanted it to be easy why didn't they plan to scatter the thousands of horses to the West ? It's Custers job to know exactly where the Indians and horses are . No excuses for not knowing that before you launch your troops into battle. Custer seems to have lacked a clear idea of his tactical goal. He was winging it at times. Just my opinion,mind you.I'm no general,just quarterbacked.
|
|
|
|
Post by moderator on Feb 10, 2011 13:49:58 GMT -5
&
I'm not in the habit of calling people names. That is, if I don't know them very well, which is usually the case here. And when or if I ever do, I mean it in jest. Something these machines do not translate well, and can and has caused way to many to misunderstand the intent.
Benteen was so ordered to send back couriers if he engaged the Indians. He didn't engage the Indians so he never sent one that we know of. This was one of the conditions of his orders. And no, he didn't send back anyone to clarify anything of those orders, why should he? Custer sent those 2 because 1) according to Benteen he forgot to tell him to send an advance in front of his troops & 2) to change Benteen's goal from The Bluffs to The Valley. Such micromanagement of troops should not have been necessary, it wasn't in the case of Maj. Reno, so why do it to Benteen? The "keep going" was to make sure that Benteen understood that Custer had not changed the "look up Indians" - "pitch in" intent of his original orders. Again a micromanagement feature not observed anywhere else on that battlefield. "Does he expect Benteen not to look?" A very good question. did he? And if Benteen was "looking up Indians" and had found essentially what Martin observed, an apparently empty village with quote "no Indians", what would have been Benteen's reaction to it? That he didn't have specific orders to attack A Village, but "Indians" only? It was in Benteen's character to do this, and he did state at the COI that he thought that Custer should have kept his regiment together. If he believed that before he ever set eyes upon any Indians or any Village, and that Custer was wrong, to what ends would he take that belief? And no, I'm not saying that Benteen could have purposefully executed such insanity to do away with Custer and all of his men, but, I am saying he could have innocently done it fully expecting as he told the court that he, Fredrick Benteen thought and fully expected that Custer "would come back to him."
Joe, I'm not so sure about the exact time Custer knew about the village or its size. The Indian scouts had observed that village on the evening of the 24th before setting out to tell Custer that they had found it. Exactly how much of that village they observed is unknown, but it is most difficult to beleive that they didn't get a very good look at it before going back. The 2nd thing that makes me believe that Custer knew not only where it was but how big it was - was Bouyers statement to him at the Crows Nest about how many Indians Custer could expect to meet. This along with Varnum and the other scouts observations, while there, leads to the inevitable conclusion that Custer knew not only where they were, but how many! Custer's message to Benteen through Martin could have been an OHHH S**t moment for him. He may have realized, too late, that he had sent Benteen "to look up" & "Pitch in" to "some Indians" and NOT a Village! And very well could have been why he stressed to Benteen, "BIG VILLAGE" through the rather bizzare and telegraphic Cookes hurried scrawl. As for Benteen's mission proper, there were Indians observed by Varnum over in the Tullochs region hunting buffalo, there were also those Indians camped near the Lone Tepee that you mentioned, and there was also Wolfe Tooth's band of Indians out there somewhere, not to mention the ones that shadowed him from Busby and of course there was The Village. As for Custer trying to comply with Terry's orders at that point about scouting to his "left", forget it, Terry had already given his permission in that same letter of instruction to do what he, Custer, needed to do when in close proximity to the Indians.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazycanuck on Feb 10, 2011 14:49:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the info.Did Benteen say Custer said he would come back to him or in other words why does Benteen expect or think Custer would come back for him unless to get him to help Custer before Custer strikes the village ? Does Benteen think Reno and Custer are on the way to where the action is and he expects that Custer will come back for him before Custer attacks. Is that right ?
|
|
|
|
Post by moderator on Feb 10, 2011 15:27:22 GMT -5
Here are the appropriate quotes from the RCOI
Q. Was it not true from the nature of your instructions that you were going to the left and if you found any Indians to drive them down that way?
A. I was to pitch into them and let him know, and then I expected him to come back to me. And if I had found them the distance would have been so great that we would have been wiped out before he could get to us.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazycanuck on Feb 10, 2011 16:41:55 GMT -5
Instead of following the Custer - Reno trail to Ford A where he sees Renos retreat, don't you think he should of headed the way the crow flies, Benteen that is , ordering Kanipe to lead him to Custer , but I quess ,they would of run into Reno anyways ? S%!$ happens,that's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. Further to your comment above how in the world could Benteen ever believe that Custer should come back to him if he pitched in ? Benteen must of known they would find nothing or if they did a small satellite camp that would not need the aid of Custer. Maybe Benteen is pretending he didn't know what was going on but yet he knew where the Indians were with Reno and Custer because the trail said so. He knows he is not going to find any Indians but he is expecting Custer to come back if he does. Doesn't add up.The ole playing "I don't know whats going on here trick by Benteen" It appears that he wants people to believe that there is no hurry because he has a job to do but claims there was no job to do. He wants it both ways. Which is it ?
|
|
|
|
Post by whitebull on Feb 10, 2011 19:39:51 GMT -5
After the battle dark rumors began to spread. A few people started asking questions about how one part of the men got wiped out while another part got off pretty good in comparison.
A friend of Libby and Custer, Frederick Whittaker wrote a book that became very popular shortly after the battle. In his book, he claimed that Custer was left to die by soldiers who did not try to help him.
You can imagine what a stir and ruckus that kind of information caused. Soon, enough public questions were raised that Reno became aware of it and started the process to clear his name.
Benteen received a subpoena and being a smart man he realized that his actions in the battle would be asked about as well as Reno and others.
It is true that Benteen eventually saved the command but some of his actions before that was questionable. By saving Reno he saved himself from questions that could have made him sweat.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazycanuck on Feb 10, 2011 20:25:56 GMT -5
What do you think the results would of been if Benteen wasn't sent left and the three divisions went together towards the village. Would Custer have sent Benteen and Reno together in the charge and Custer flank ? If they had to do it over again knowing the results what would Custer have done differently ? Would he have sent Benteen left ?
|
|
|
|
Post by moderator on Feb 10, 2011 21:11:41 GMT -5
WB,
The ironic part about all of this is that most people think it quite natural for Benteen to end up where he did and then stay to quote "aid" Reno. Yet at the RCOI Benteen denied this saying to the effect that Reno had no right to expect any such thing (to paraphrase). He also had this to say:
Q. was any order afterwards sent to you to join Major Reno or to assist him?
A. NEVER
Q. The order sent to you was to join Gen. Custer and assist him?
A. By Tmtr. Martin was the only 1 I got.
Even Benteen knew what Martin's order meant, ie he was to join and assist General Custer, but today it is interpreted differently - even to the exclusion of what Benteen actually said at the RCOI.
CC,
You are understanding Benteen quite well. He indeed wanted his cake and to eat it to, and that is the way his testimony reads at the COI, and is why no one has ever understood that testimony.
As for speculation upon what Custer may or may not have done, I don't have the slightest idea.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazycanuck on Feb 11, 2011 12:21:02 GMT -5
If Benteen hadn't been sent left, Custers survival rate increases threefold. A cavalry template standard three prong attack, including Benteen being sent to the left to be sure that no satellite Indian camp exists to the south I understand(Custer remembering what happened at Washita wouldn''t want that to happen again... I'm sure when he was through at Washita he thought he was brilliant more than lucky). However back to the LBH and I ask if Custer KNOWS there are no Indians in the upper valley,does he then send Benteen to the left to scout ? No he doesn't .
|
|
|
|
Post by moderator on Feb 11, 2011 14:36:23 GMT -5
So you think Benteen was sent on a wild goose chase? That's not the impression I get from Benteens own statements at the RCOI. Remember he wants it both ways. He said that Custer "sent him to look up some Indians", those Indians had to be there or Custer would never had sent him. Further proof that those Indians were there was the "Pitch in" order. Also Custer did know that there were no Indians in the perceived direction most people like to use on this one, that area was scouted by Varnum and the other scouts when they were at the Crows Nest. And there was no way for them to miss anything going on in that direction. Wherever Custer sent him, rest assured there were Indians there.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazycanuck on Feb 11, 2011 15:30:51 GMT -5
I don't necessarily think he was sent on a wild goose chase, I just want to know, if there were no Indians to the southeast, and if Custer had before hand knowledge of this, and if then Custer kept Benteen with him because of this knowledge, would Custer of had a better chance of surviving, the battle of the LBH ?
|
|
|
|
Post by crazycanuck on Feb 11, 2011 15:34:35 GMT -5
But there were no Indians to the souteast!
|
|
|
|
Post by crazycanuck on Feb 11, 2011 16:02:44 GMT -5
Do you remember Custer at Washita,he couldn't spare time to check Elliots whereabouts because of other pressing needs like destroying the pony herd, then it would probably be fair to say, that Benteen at the LBH couldn't get to Custer because he had pressing needs like keeping his troops in conditon to fight and not overtire the horses on his return from the left . Custer would understand this kind of thinking.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazycanuck on Feb 11, 2011 16:03:42 GMT -5
Maybe what goes around comes around.
|
|
