Size of the Village

[joewiggs]

A salient point regarding the battle yet, often either overlooked or delegated to the "who cares?" file is the size of the village. The larger the village the more populous it is ergo, the more warriors involved with the battle.

Contrary to the soldier witnesses and writers who claim the village to be up to four miles long and a mile wide the reality is it just ain't so!

Indian testimony when using "White" measurements are just as disjointed and convoluted. However, when utilizing geographical points of references well known to them they were far more consistent across the board.

Pretty White Buffalo: "The Cheyenne and Sans Arc camps were at the lower (north) end of the village, across from the easy (Medicine Trail) crossing of the river."

Standing Bear: "the mouth of Muskrat (Medicine Trail) Creek was north of the Santee camp, which was the northernmost of the circles."

Two Moon: "The village stretched from Sitting Bull's camp at Big Shoulder's Allotment (Shoulder Blade Creek ) to the Cheyenne Camp at Medicine tail's Place."

All of the camps were east of present day highway I-90. A trapezoid configuration with the widest part following the course of the modern highway and the shorter base running along the course of the Little Big river.

In summation, an area within a little over a mile and a quarter! Perhaps a village reduced to less than half it's reported size would indicate the number of warriors involved to half the amount reported also?

What do you think CC?


(See Michno's Lakota Noon for further.)

[whitebull]

I don't get it. Benteen and Reno traveled south from one end of the village and came up with three miles or so. Gibbon came from the north to south and came up with about the same distance.

Even some of the Indians talked about the village being over three miles long. With all the problems with good Indian translations, it seems to me that the soldiers were the more reliable.

[stumblingbear]

If I'm not mistaken, the village was moved south during the night of the attack. Naturally, everyone else thought the first location and the second location were the same.

[joewiggs]

Yes, portions of the village, on the day of the attack had begun to move northwest in hopes of securing fresh game. Reno's attack, of course, halted that movement. it was the Lakota custom to moved their lodges to a new location after the death of a family member.

Of course when Gibbon approached from the north and Reno from the south, the remnants of the total village appeared to be one. The size of the village appeared to be twice the original one at this point.

[joewiggs]

Another "clue" to the mis-reported dimensions of the village is that of a psychological perspective.

"Recent studies of post traumatic stress disorder even point to the possibility that the white survivors, experiencing "psychic numbing" and "emotional anesthesia" simply could not give an accurate rendering of the objects and terrain."

No one has condemned Reno more than I for his malfeasance of duty while under stress and, at least, we now have a plausible explanation for his extraordinary conflicts between his original commander's report and his testimony at the Inquiry.

[whitebull]

I got a question for the forum that I need help with. Generally speaking, most of the witnesses agree that the timber was defensible. Maybe it was not a good place to be but, still defensible. Now, the bluffs were open to Indian snipers and quite a few men got snuffed there. pack boxes and other stuff had to be placed out to protect the soldiers. Hell, even horses were killed when men hid among them.

My question is this, why did Reno leave a defensible spot for a spot not as defensible? Why did he leave a known place for a place completely unknown?

In rushing towards the bluffs there could have been hundreds and hundreds of Indians waiting for him instead of the few that were there. It don't make sense that so many of the guys said that Reno did the right thing by leaving when where you are going to could have been more dangerous. Right?

[tbw]

May 14, 2011 18:42:22 GMT -5 whitebull said:

I got a question for the forum that I need help with. Generally speaking, most of the witnesses agree that the timber was defensible. Maybe it was not a good place to be but, still defensible. Now, the bluffs were open to Indian snipers and quite a few men got snuffed there. pack boxes and other stuff had to be placed out to protect the soldiers. Hell, even horses were killed when men hid among them.

My question is this, why did Reno leave a defensible spot for a spot not as defensible? Why did he leave a known place for a place completely unknown?

In rushing towards the bluffs there could have been hundreds and hundreds of Indians waiting for him instead of the few that were there. It don't make sense that so many of the guys said that Reno did the right thing by leaving when where you are going to could have been more dangerous. Right?

I think we all tend to filter this kind of thing through different colored lenses. And for the most part, that is a good thing. But every once in a while a question like this comes along that challenges our mental abilities to reach back and read Reno's mind. And most people then tend to shy away from answering such a question because of obvious reasons. No, I'm no mind reader either, and would be the first to admit it and the very last to try it. But I don't think we have to go that far or make that kind of effort.

I think the first consideration here would be what was the mission they were sent to do, not just by Custer but so assigned by Terry and fully endorsed by Sherman and Sheridan. They were there as everyone knows to bring those Indians in to the reservations.

The next consideration would be Custer's orders to Reno. And he had been sent so Reno and his closest cadre say to "charge the village after".

The best answer then seems to be how to accomplish either of those two orders without risking the entire operation because of something he might do.

According to both Reno and Benteen neither of them had an inkling of what the others orders were or for that matter where they were in relation one to the other. Seems a bit strange, but one supposes it either gets stranger or something professes to explain that situation better. But one of the known facts was that neither Benteen or his men or Reno or his men laied eyes on each other until after Reno began his retreat.

The pack train was another issue altogether, One does tend to think that had Reno needed ammunition he would have sent back a man for it, but it appears that wasn't done either. Again, I think this goes with saying what Custer expected his outfit to do, which was to attack, and when they didn't complete the attack and was forced into defending themselves, either Reno didn't have the option because of the Indians surrounding his position and/or it wasn't expected that he would send for more ammunition.

According to the accounts I've seen they had expended approximately 1/2 of their allotted rounds for their rifles. And If that was true then I don't think he felt he had much choice in the matter but to get to the other side of the river where he could be reinforced and/or resupplied.

Whether Custer promised support to him is I think a rather silly notion. Why would you say you'd support Reno's action and then head off 5 to 6 miles from where the two columns separated. This I don't think was ever promised by Custer. but one thing Reno did know for sure was that Custer did tell him that he was going to downstream to hit them there. I think Custer and Reno both knew they were operating on their own the moment Custer told Reno he was going downstream. And if we assume this was true, then once Reno's attack produced the desired results, I think Reno thought it the better decision to save him and his troops and effect a junction with the other battalions and try to win that thing. And I don't think he thought he could do it in that timber all alone for any time past the time it took the sky to turn dark. They were just way to close to the Indian encampment for comforts sake.

[joewiggs]

Your information is logical, sensible, and certainly worth noting. However, I would add a factor that may, perhaps, explain the problem in a different light. Reno was so scared that all he could think of was moving (as quickly as possible) away from the Indians toward the last sighting of Custer.

Reno discovered, to his dismay, that the courage to follow pales in comparison with the courage to lead. From the moment he left the sanctuary of his Leader's side he could think of nothing else but returning.

His final place of refuge was not selected for any military consideration whatsoever as his right flank was forced toward and across the river by the ever pressing of the warriors. I believe his original hope was to reach the same ford he crossed earlier he just didn't make it.

Any statements by Reno and Benteen regarding orders from anyone can not be viewed as meritorious as they were seeking to camouflage mistakes that occurred during this battle that could have been reflected upon their actions or inactions. Benteen admitted as much in personal letters who wrote. In correspondence he unabashedly admitted that Reno and others) let the bottom fall out when faced with danger.

The disinformation spawned by Reno, Benteen, and Wallace ( to name three) has cast a dark parlor of inaccuracies upon the major portion of battle information that have come down to us over the years. This factor has resulted many inaccuracies that are now attested to by many students who believe the tainted information to be infallible.

As an example, there are students who insist that Reno's actions at the timber were necessary and that he could do nothing else to save his command.

Had he not deserted the skirmish line, only to be followed by several other officers, controlled fire would have kept the warriors sufficiently at bay until Benteen arrived which he would have done if Reno had not prematurely moved his position. There is a substantial chance that the combined forces, that close to the village, would have necessitated the warriors into a "fall back"
maneuver to save their families. Thanks to the likes of the barbaric "Chivington" attack and Custer's Washita excursion the Indians could only expect the worse case scenario.

Thanks to Reno, they were unexpectedly relieved of the overwhelming fear of danger to their loved ones the unanticipated vision of the sweaty backs of the hastily, retreating "charge" toward the hills.

[whitebull]

I got no gripe with what you say but i got to ask why you believe that Reno did so badly during the fight? Don't get me wrong, he didn't do nothing to brag about or write home to Momma but, staying in the timber with all that hooting and a hollering going on when have unnerved a whole lot of people!

[tbw]

Reno was so scared that all he could think of was moving (as quickly as possible) away from the Indians toward the last sighting of Custer.

I'm not sure about this one. I know Reno's men reported seeing some elements of Custer's battalion at various points of the advance from the ford to where they set up the skirmish line. But, I don't think any of them told Reno about it at the time. I don't know whether Reno saw those same elements of Custer's battalion or not, and I don't think they ever asked him that question at the COI. I'm not sure we can assume he saw anything of Custer's battalion after departing. He might have, being in a position of command, to busy to have noticed anything in that direction. I'm not saying that he didn't see them, he certainly had to opportunity to have done so, but, I'd sure like some kind of confirmation from somewhere that he knew where Custer's outfit was at any given time.

Reno discovered, to his dismay, that the courage to follow pales in comparison with the courage to lead. From the moment he left the sanctuary of his Leader's side he could think of nothing else but returning.

It's possible. But I think at least the effort was there. He made the effort to charge and I guess if those numerous Indians hadn't been in that ditch, he might have spooked the whole lot of them because I do think his outfit surprised them. Here I guess I look at the effort made in comparison to others, at least he followed the orders as HE understood them.

The disinformation spawned by Reno, Benteen, and Wallace ( to name three) has cast a dark parlor of inaccuracies upon the major portion of battle information that have come down to us over the years. This factor has resulted many inaccuracies that are now attested to by many students who believe the tainted information to be infallible.

I think quite a lot of that disinformation was intentional the way it was presented. The COI is, I think, one of the best sources we have to understand anything, yet it was that same court that imposed so many restrictions upon what couldn't be discussed that it has left an impression that, I think, leaves a lot to be desired. Was their measured responses to the questions by the court carefully worded to avoid talking about things they didn't want to go into? I think this is what we today are left with. And if the court initiated and carried through with it because of those issues to sensitive to discuss, then it was the courts fault and not the witnesses. IE. look for.... "leading the witnesses"...

As an example, there are students who insist that Reno's actions at the timber were necessary and that he could do nothing else to save his command.

Had he not deserted the skirmish line, only to be followed by several other officers, controlled fire would have kept the warriors sufficiently at bay until Benteen arrived which he would have done if Reno had not prematurely moved his position. There is a substantial chance that the combined forces, that close to the village, would have necessitated the warriors into a fall back
maneuver to save their families. Thanks to the likes of the barbaric Chivington attack and Custer's Washita excursion the Indians could only expect the worse case scenario.

I still wonder about the Indians in the ditch Reno reported, because I don't believe anyone else ever confirmed them being there. There is however evidence for that type of behavior from the Indians as they were well known for setting traps and ambushes. This seemed to be what Reno was alluding to when he said that they had set decoys out there for Custer to dispatch someone to follow them and then only to lure him into a trap.

As for the skirmish line, I don't know, it seems pretty silly to me to use a dismounted skirmish line at all for attacking the Indians. I guess dismount forward march and fire was what he was trying to do. Still, with the number of Indians there, they were just going to surround his little squadron and pretty darn soon, so it still seemed pointless to try it. It's like saying, looky here at me, come get me? When they are trying to convey the opposite aren't they? I guess its all how you want to say boo. All in all it looks pretty silly when you think about it.

Thanks to Reno, they were unexpectedly relieved of the overwhelming fear of danger to their loved ones the unanticipated vision of the sweaty backs of the hastily, retreating charge toward the hills.

I guess what did anyone expect from either Custer's battalion or Reno's when they were just going to ride up there dismount and use outdated Civil War skirmish lines against a fast moving, savvy and mobile enemy who more or less stuck out their tongues in derision at them as they surrounded and then overwhelmed them.

[joewiggs]

As usual, your meticulous and germane responses must be dealt with cautiously and, with reservation so that I don't needlessly look the fool.

Having open my big mouth in a flurry of denigration of Reno (from memory) I must now go back and retrieve my sources. it is utter respect for you that forces this hand and I know you understand. ;D

I shall return soon with my sources and continue this dialog with a man I admire and respect! Everybody stand by, this should be interesting!

[whitebull]

Personally I think that the need for a "pause" is admitting that you been got! ;D

[stumblingbear]

Personally I know that Joe is a gentleman and will answer the thread when he sees fit!

[tbw]

As usual, your meticulous and germane responses must be dealt with cautiously and, with reservation so that I don't needlessly look the fool.

No, Joe I wouldn't even try that with you or with anyone else here. You're way to good at knowing this stuff, heck, I'd bet even I don't have the library you have, and I'm not a gambling man.

Having open my big mouth in a flurry of denigration of Reno (from memory) I must now go back and retrieve my sources. it is utter respect for you that forces this hand and I know you understand. ;D

I did get a chuckle out of you self description, but I don't think your views all that bad. That's what we're trying to do here; figure this puzzle out, but it seems we've opened the hermetically sealed wrapper and found that quite a few pieces seem to be either missing or need to be re-cut. I've seen quite a few people who take the scissors to it in a fit of frustration and proclaim they've all the answers.

And yeah, I do understand. And the respect is mutual. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I shall return soon with my sources and continue this dialog with a man I admire and respect! Everybody stand by, this should be interesting!

I find that its when I step away from the puzzle, and take a good look at what isn't there, it usually comes back to haunt me. Its during those moments of reflection that I find a greater respect for others views than my own.

And I'll repeat the same; I admire and respect you as well, as I do all members here.

And knowing you as I do, I don't doubt for a moment that what you'll find is something that even I wouldn't dare counter.

[tbw]

May 21, 2011 18:57:15 GMT -5 stumblingbear said:

Personally I know that Joe is a gentleman and will answer the thread when he sees fit!

Yeah I know Joe is doing his best at imitating Benteen, and darn it, he's doing a superb job of it to, don't you think? ;D