Reno's "Charge."

[joewiggs]

Now is the time to stand and post your true feelings regarding the famous "charge" by Major Reno.

[stumblingbear]

I don't believe Reno should have gone any further because there were just to many Indians. I can not believe that he could have forced his command through. I realize that the soldiers, Reno in particular, exaggerated the numbers but, even if there were only 1,000 Indians Reno's command of a 140 or so could not have gotten through.

As for the timber I wish he had remained. With a good perimeter defense the Indians would not, I think, have infiltrated. Those that did manage to get through did so because there was not a proper defense set up.

Benteen's arrival occurred when Reno's men were still climbing the bluffs. Had Reno stayed a few minutes more the Indians would have, probably, fallen back and Benteen and Reno combined would have represented such a threat to the village that the Indians would not have been able to send the vast manpower towards Custer that they wound up doing.

In such a case, Custer's command would not have been wiped out or so I believe.

[strange]

I think Reno was merely trying to avoid any casualties whatsoever and did not charge the village for that reason. The number of men that would have been sacrificed in an attack were probably the same as what he eventually abandoned or lost in the timber, the only difference is whether you wanna spend those lives getting something done against the enemy or by just bungling a retreat.

And yes, he probably also exaggerated this 500 warriors in a ditch thing, just as he exaggerated about telling Benteen he had lost "half his command". Reno sucks.

Strange

[joewiggs]

Dr. Strange, I truly believe you may be giving Reno a tad too much credit;more than he probably deserves. The more I read about the circumstances of this "charge" the more I grow to believe that Reno could no more complete that charge than I could grow another foot in height, no matter how much I tried to do so.

The warriors were in a state of shock and disbelief when Reno and company came pounding down the valley in a furious uproar of pounding hooves and mile high, swirling dust . Unbounded trepidation for the safety of their loved ones overwhelmed the warriors as their psyche became further became intertwined in an additional and convoluted fear that they were no match for this unprecedented and totally unanticipated encroachment of the "white-eyes" upon their hearth and homes;a charge by unknown numbers!

Suddenly, a miracle occurred and Wanka Tanka intervened and caused the "silly leader" of the white-eyes to suddenly stop in his tracks in a screeching halt. This equally surprising but reversed fortune turn of events empowered the warriors and they quickly became embolden, gave thanks above and struck with the fury and quickness of a sudden summer storm.

The problem with reviewing the circumstances of the battle is that we do so in a state of hindsight. We know that Reno was outnumbered and so was Custer. Thus, the assumption is given birth to the erroneous assumption that the soldiers never had a chance to negate the overwhelming odds against them.

The only true chance the soldiers had was a determined charge by Reno followed by support from Custer and Benteen. Had that occurred the Indians would have frantically dispersed with their families in tow.

Unfortunately for the army, the military tactic required to disburse the village was beyond the ability of Major Reno.

[joewiggs]

I believe that Reno was incapable of completing the task laid upon him. He was also drunk. What capabilities he may have possessed were off set by his intoxication. you can not make rational decisions under excessive liquor consumption.

[whitebull]

It's a hard thing to call any man a coward without knowing all of the circumstances of a situation. In this case I can't help but believe that a graduate from West Point who fought and survived the Civil War was, on this particular day, a coward.

This does not make him a coward all the days of his life. Just on June 25, 1876.

[joewiggs]

The following is an American perspective that we may all agree upon:

"One other element enters into the system of warfare, for which, as yet, no adequate provision has been made. This is the care of the wounded, who cannot, as in civilized warfare be left in hospitals on the field of battle. An Indian is rarely defeated until he is dead, and he not only kills everyone of his enemies he can find, but wrecks his revenge on his dead body. hence a very small number of wounded men is sufficient to temporarily paralyze the offensive operations of a large body of troops."


Unfortunately the soldiers who followed Reno into combat were not recipients of this philosophy. I have been informed,by another on a different forum, that Reno had no choice to leave his wounded behind because he could not ask for volunteers for a "rear guard" formation.

In every military force of the U.S.A, from the revolutionary war to the present, that I'm aware of you did not make requests you gave orders.

Also, a good leader maintains control of his men thus, avoiding mental debilitation of moral which results in panic. Not to mention, informing all of your troops of what to expect and do.

[tbw]

I apologize to T.B.W. ( and every one else) for my stupidity in using his thread to insert quotes and respond. It was unintentional. I did not realize my error until I had gotten way into the text. the quotes are T.B.M's and my responses follow.
T.B.W.

I don't believe we are asking the right questions on quite a lot of this, at least not enough to understand it in the context of the written record, which is all we really have. One example here comes to mind. The warriors, well, in fact we are led to believe the whole Indian encampment was in a state of disbelief and shock when Reno and his measly minions came charging down the valley at them. But within minutes if not within mere seconds as if by some miracle of the gods, the Indians see some kind of advantage because Reno's minions stop to a screeching halt, this being enough to empower them to strike... and we know the rest of the story. Really?

JW
The initial perception of the warriors were very human and understandable when first confronted by Reno's command;sudden and unanticipated dangers often result in an immediate action to seek safety until the true nature of the event can be further diagnosed. I believe that is what occurred in this instance. White and Indian testimony equally attest to the fact that the warriors initially fell back then surged forward when Reno halted.

T.B.W.

By all accounts there were at the very least somewhere from 1200+ warriors in that village, and... AND they are afraid of 140

troopers whether charging or not? That Indian camp was in disarray, they didn't know what the hell was going on, read Two Moon's account and I think you'll get a really good feel of what every Indian was thinking and feeling and doing. It really was a "which way did he go George" moment for them and anyone could have pointed in any direction just like Bugs, even the opposite and they would have ran that way in pursuit before realizing they had been duped

.

JW
I agree that your supposition has valuable merit. However, Two Moon's account (I believe) begins with the realization that Reno had very foolishly screeched to a halt enabling the warriors to retrieve mounts, shout encouragement, and joyfully deduce that their leader of this unit was afraid. Whether Reno was in fact afraid or not is moot as his military tactic alone empowered the warriors to fight.

T.B.W.

It wasn't because Reno stopped his men, its because he was alone with no other troops around him that they attacked him and the measly force that came with him. They knew they had him by the cojone's and it wasn't until after they had beaten him back to the bluffs that those who went to fight him realized that there was another group of troopers there!

JW
There exist a possibility that Reno was to supported by Benteen and, this position is given credence in that he, in fact, arrived within ten minutes of Reno reaching the bluffs. In fact some of the men were still climbing the bluffs. there is also the possibility that Custer was in position to cross MTC but declined to do so because Reno did not follow orders and carry through his charge. I realize that these points are unmerited if one believes that no orders were issued to Benteen and Reno by Custer. I believe he did.

T.B.W.

Two Moon's attitude pretty much brings this thing full circle into understanding what really happened and all it took was knowing whether they had superior numbers, they did, and they knew they did at the time, that was all it took and it didn't matter what the hell the troopers were doing, because the best evidence in that was Custer was the best and even he and his tactics could and didn't stop them, why should we expect Reno or for that matter Benteen's actions (don't go there, even he admitted he couldn't have) to have been any different in those same circumstances

?

JW
Unfortunately to imply that Custer's tactics would not work is basing judgment upon the fatal outcome;he lost so the tactics must have been bad. What if the tactics had been carried out by Reno and Benteen as planned does not the possibility exist that the outcome would have been different?

T.B.W.

It's been claimed time and time again that there was too many Indians there for them to have defeated them, hell, even their own Indian allies at the time came back and said the same damn thing at the time and we still don't believe it, consider it and reason it correctly without biased BS blinders. Reno's successes and his failures are just the opposite of Custer's, yet we chose to find fault with what isn't there.

JW
Is it not interesting that the day Reno and company were relieved they excitedly talked to Terry's command of the horrible things they had experienced and there must have been 3, 000 Indian at least. Between that time and, the Reno Inquiry,Benteen said that his military training convinced him that at least 9,000 warriors or more were in the village. Lets further propose that each tipi housed a minimum of five persons;father, mother, in-laws,children,etc.. . Of course there could be many more or less, however lets start with five;a reasonable amount.

The result is an Indian village of a minimum 45,000 souls! Add mounts of at least 50,000 (many warriors possessed more than one horse) it certainly was very crowed in that valley.

T.B.W.

We've been told that the Indian tactics, which by the way I feel we all really need a refresher course 101 on [anyone want to tackle that one?], anyway, tactics... was to "penetrate the weakness of the enemy and retreat from his strengths." The Indians at the LBH did just that in both the Reno and Custer battlefields, and the one weakness everyone still overlooks was the numbers, and yet they still keep harping about it.

JW
We of American are fortunate to have a "Standing" army prepared to give battle to they who would thrust their will against ours. A military of thousands and thousands of well trained men who are condition to attack a predestined position and keep it. The Native American could never muster such numbers and the death of every male member could dramatically reduce the population of the tribe and no physical, military "target" could warrant such a loss.

An inter-tribal battle was one thing, the U.S. Army was quite another. Despite the erroneous depictions of Indians charging wagon trains and being shot down indiscriminately portrayed by Hollywood in the 50's, it just didn't happen that way. If the warriors could not find a "weakness" in the enemy he simple withdrew (as long as the family was safe) until something better came along.

T.B.W.

There is ample evidence in the orders sent to him that Custer expected Benteen to join him. Its too much to go into great detail here or for that matter to try to explain, but it is to my knowledge and belief that Benteen did have the means and opportunity to have done just as those orders described, it was the motive that prevented him from doing it, and in doing so, as he himself testified to at the COI, he deviated from his course and met Reno and his men instead. It wasn't Reno who met Benteen, it was, Benteen who met Reno and that was by intent and not accident.

JW
Ironically, I believe that ample evidence exist that Benteen was ordered to support Reno. A fact that neither commander wished to share after they did not. For years I have asked myself, why were there no medical staff assigned to Benteen? Could it have been that Benteen's movement was simply a precautionary tactic to ramrod any possible fleeing Indians back towards Reno and Custer. That Benteen was not expected to face serious combat until he joined with Reno?

T.B.W.

What did these men exaggerate? Or more the the point, what did Reno exaggerate when he told of those Indian numbers in the ditch? Memory is such a fickle thing, or was that a Finkle thing?

JW
When your past actions are being judged by a group of individuals who were not there, who did not suffer as you did, who can not begin to understand the terror of that battle, you are not human if you don't try to "stack the deck" in your favor. I fully understand this human condition and I have been a past victim of it. The problem arises when your need to save your own skin becomes so dominant that you are willing to destroy the reputations of men who died in you stead, its time to draw the line.

T.B.W.

"I recognized Sgt. Finkle and Finley. Sgt. Finley lay at his horses (Carlos) head. Finkle's horse was named Ginger." "Most of the troops had been stripped of their clothing and scalped. Some of them had been horribly mutilated. I tried to find the body of my German friend, Trooper Finkle the tallest man in the regiment, but I could not identify him." What do I think? I think we ought to cut all of these guy a little slack, to include Reno and those Indians in a ditch. There might have been only 50 really there, but when you really think about it, I mean really think about it, if they were all armed with Henry's and Winchesters, Reno's outfit would still have been toast, and badly burnt at that and, AND still hot footing it to the bluff, only this time it would have been a whole lot earlier, and maybe, as we are wont to do, just maybe, it would have been early enough for him to have gotten off of his butt and truly have saved George Armstrong Custer and his men. [Yeah, I know, I got a different way of looking at this thing. But I really don't think I'm all that far off of the mark on this stuff. And it still isn't worth personal feuds and discouraging words no matter what anyone else thinks.

JW
I agree with all of the above with one exception, it is important to peruse any and all available information concerning this battle because not to do so is to be discriminant, an indiscriminate approach of all testimony and a subsequent analysis of same is important even if sometimes frustrating.

[stumblingbear]

I agree with T.W.B. that we need to understand that memory is not an exact science. I have to take a list to go shopping!
We have to be careful that we don't place all our eggs in one basket when quoting others for or against.

I will admit that Joe came up with an interesting though about how many Indians were in the fight. Could it be the more Indians in the fight the easier to make excuses for the lost? I don't know.

I don't know about Benteen supposedly backing Reno. There might be something to it, I just don't know.

[tbw]

Joe, Just be careful next time which button you choose to reply by, the one you chose isn't forgiving enough to let you get out of it. With that said, I would appreciate it if you'd not take my words out of context from what I said. There is another, no not here, who does the same thing all the damn time, and he does it on purpose to bend the words of others to what he wants them to say. The structure of anyone's post is... phrases separated by comma's in sentences within paragraphs. If you separate any of it to your will as you like it, you're taking it out of context from what the author stated. Below was what I stated. The way you answered my post butchered it to boot, and didn't just ruin the intent/context of what I stated, but bent it to what you wanted me to say, and, I didn't. First, stop it, 2nd, don't use that guy's example as a way of answering anyone's post if you want to have an intelligent conversation without insulting them. Below is what I said and the way I wrote it.



I don't believe we are asking the right questions on quite a lot of this, at least not enough to understand it in the context of the written record, which is all we really have. One example here comes to mind. The warriors, well, in fact we are led to believe the whole Indian encampment was in a state of disbelief and shock when Reno and his measly minions came charging down the valley at them. But within minutes if not within mere seconds as if by some miracle of the gods, the Indians see some kind of advantage because Reno's minions stop to a screeching halt, this being enough to empower them to strike... and we know the rest of the story. Really? By all accounts there were at the very least somewhere from 1200+ warriors in that village, and... AND they are afraid of 140 troopers whether charging or not? That Indian camp was in disarray, they didn't know what the hell was going on, read Two Moon's account and I think you'll get a really good feel of what every Indian was thinking and feeling and doing. It really was a "which way did he go George" moment for them and anyone could have pointed in any direction just like Bugs, even the opposite and they would have ran that way in pursuit before realizing they had been duped. It wasn't because Reno stopped his men, its because he was alone with no other troops around him that they attacked him and the measly force that came with him. They knew they had him by the cojone's and it wasn't until after they had beaten him back to the bluffs that those who went to fight him realized that there was another group of troopers there! Two Moon's attitude pretty much brings this thing full circle into understanding what really happened and all it took was knowing whether they had superior numbers, they did, and they knew they did at the time, that was all it took and it didn't matter what the hell the troopers were doing, because the best evidence in that was Custer was the best and even he and his tactics could and didn't stop them, why should we expect Reno or for that matter Benteen's actions (don't go there, even he admitted he couldn't have) to have been any different in those same circumstances? It's been claimed time and time again that there was too many Indians there for them to have defeated them, hell, even their own Indian allies at the time came back and said the same damn thing at the time and we still don't believe it, consider it and reason it correctly without biased BS blinders.

Reno's successes and his failures are just the opposite of Custer's, yet we choose to find fault with what isn't there. We've been told that the Indian tactics, which by the way I feel we all really need a refresher course 101 on [anyone want to tackle that one?], anyway, tactics... was to "penetrate the weakness of the enemy and retreat from his strengths." The Indians at the LBH did just that in both the Reno and Custer battlefields, and the one weakness everyone still overlooks was the numbers, and yet they still keep harping about it. There is ample evidence in the orders sent to him that Custer expected Benteen to join him. Its too much to go into great detail here or for that matter to try to explain, but it is to my knowledge and belief that Benteen did have the means and opportunity to have done just as those orders described, it was the motive that prevented him from doing it, and in doing so, as he himself testified to at the COI, he deviated from his course and met Reno and his men instead. It wasn't Reno who met Benteen, it was, Benteen who met Reno and that was by intent and not accident.

What did these men exaggerate? Or more the the point, what did Reno exaggerate when he told of those Indian numbers in the ditch? Memory is such a fickle thing, or was that a Finkle thing? "I recognized Sgt. Finkle and Finley. Sgt. Finley lay at his horses (Carlos) head. Finkle's horse was named Ginger." "Most of the troops had been stripped of their clothing and scalped. Some of them had been horribly mutilated. I tried to find the body of my German friend, Trooper Finkle the tallest man in the regiment, but I could not identify him." What do I think? I think we ought to cut all of these guy a little slack, to include Reno and those Indians in a ditch. There might have been only 50 really there, but when you really think about it, I mean really think about it, if they were all armed with Henry's and Winchesters, Reno's outfit would still have been toast, and badly burnt at that and, AND still hot footing it to the bluff, only this time it would have been a whole lot earlier, and maybe, as we are wont to do, just maybe, it would have been early enough for him to have gotten off of his butt and truly have saved George Armstrong Custer and his men. [Yeah, I know, I got a different way of looking at this thing. But I really don't think I'm all that far off of the mark on this stuff. And it still isn't worth personal feuds and discouraging words no matter what anyone else thinks.

[tbw]

I personally think quite a lot of this is because Reno's orders are misinterpreted by a lot of people. Some read more into those orders than what was there and others don't pay enough attention to the detail that was given to them, then when they do, all they have to say about it was that guy was wrong, lied or didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Just how dumb is that? Here were men who were there and told us what happened and they were wrong!!! And we're supposed to believe people today who make up stories about what they think those orders mean?

Here are just a few examples:

1) Ever heard the tale that Reno was supposed to charge the village? Just where in the records does it ever state this?

2) What exactly was Reno to use his own to quote words to "charge after"?

3) What did the Ree's say Reno's orders were?

4) What was Girard's rendition of those orders, or for that matter Hare's? Remember they were there. Why should I believe you and not them?

[joewiggs]

The problem, as I see it, regarding questions that should be discussed or not is the propensity to get crazy with it. I try to remain with issues that have, at the very least, a crumb of possibility.

Undoubtedly a substantial portion of the "Custer battle" data is controversial, unable to be substantiated, sometimes remarkably eerie, despicable, heroic, thrilling, disgusting, and a host of other arousing adjectives that would simply boggle the mind!

I believe fervently that any and all aspects of this battle (excluding any theories that include flying saucers) possibilities, declarations, innuendo, participant statements (Indian and white) should be open for discussion. Why?

John Koster has written a well written and fascinating book entitled, "The End of a Myth the Beginning of a Legend." In his tome, he proffers legitimate documentation that gives credence to the possibility that "Frank Finkle" survived the battle and lived a long and prosperous life after the battle.

Professor Louise Barnett "Touched by Fire" Jeffrey Wert, "Custer", Scott Cross, Archivist of Oshkosh Public Museum (guardian of the Finkle file), Sandra Luebking, editor of "Forum" magazine helped authenticate Finkle's handwriting,and a host of others) support
Koster's thesis.

It sometimes seems the right thing to do to shrug away new ideas that seem improbable or not worthy of investigation.
This case is, I believe, an exception.

[joewiggs]

Aug 7, 2012 22:57:13 GMT -5 tbw said:

I personally think quite a lot of this is because Reno's orders are misinterpreted by a lot of people. Some read more into those orders than what was there and others don't pay enough attention to the detail that was given to them, then when they do, all they have to say about it was that guy was wrong, lied or didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Just how dumb is that? Here were men who were there and told us what happened and they were wrong!!! And we're supposed to believe people today who make up stories about what they think those orders mean?

Here are just a few examples:

1) Ever heard the tale that Reno was supposed to charge the village? Just where in the records does it ever state this?

Forgive me for
2) What exactly was Reno to use his own to quote words to "charge after"?

3) What did the Ree's say Reno's orders were?

4) What was Girard's rendition of those orders, or for that matter Hare's? Remember they were there. Why should I believe you and not them?

Girard was one of the few witnesses who testified that he heard,directly, Custer give Reno the following order, (paraphrased), "The Indians are on the jump, charge them and the rest of the command will support you." Other witnesses claimed that the order came from Lt. Cooke.

Custer was referring approximately fifty Indians who were fleeing from the area of the "Lone Tepee" and appeared to be heading for the village to warn them.

Just prior to this, Lt. Varnum approached Custer and declared that "the valley was filled with Indians" Custer inquired as to how he knew this and Varnum replied that he and the scouts had just seen the tops of the tepees.

Reno, of course, was comfortable with chasing a few Indians but, when arrived to the outskirts of the village and did not see Custer behind him his bottom fell out.

During the inquiry only Reno and Benteen testified that NO orders were given. Others testified that orders were issued but they(civilians,scouts, and non-coms) were ignored by the illustrious Board!

[tbw]

Joe's falderal Forgive me for
2) What exactly was Reno to use his own to quote words to "charge after"?

It wasn't stated as a, the or it village, the exact quote was,
pg 516

Q. You received an order from Gen. Custer through his Adjutant?
A. Yes.
Q. I would like you to repeat that order again,
A, "Gen. Custer directs you to move forward at as rapid a gait as you
think prudent, and to charge afterward, and you will be supported by the whole outfit." I think these were the exact words.
Q, You were, of course, expected to charge the Indians?
A. Yes; certainly.

Nowhere can it be stated that he was given direct orders to charge the village. He wasn't and never received any such thing. When asked about what he was to "charge afterward" after he acknowledged it was quote "the Indians".

[joewiggs]

With all respect, what objective is being referred to in the statement "to charge afterward" if not the Indians who were in a village? They had to reside somewhere.

Reno gave false testimony not once but several times at the inquiry. Why is this particular "testimony" sacrosanct? Graham's "Reno Inquiry" list 16 witnesses who testified to the alleged hearing of gun fire emitting from Custer's command. 13 of the 16 testified to hearing the gun fire. The other three, Reno, Benteen, and Wallace did not. All 16 witnesses were under sworn oath!

Reno swore (in Court):
"there was no other way to support me" referring to enforcement from the rear or flank. It simply must come from the rear he espoused. When Recorded Lee held up Reno's post battle Official Report while asking, " If a flank attack could be considered support Reno replied, "Not under the circumstances."

Lee then asked Reno if he wrote in his official report that Custer could have, in fact,support from the flank he replied, "I may have said that" without changing his expression.

Liddic P 65.

There is so much discussion and perspectives, that may counter my beliefs that I am more than willing to (sometimes) acquiesce to. I fervently believe that proper compromise is an essential tool toward the learning process. The veracity and sworn testimony of Reno is the exception for me.