Battles end is a beginning

[tbw]

Over the years I've came to the conclusions I have due to a research technique little thought of or experienced. This technique involves looking at this battle from a different perspective. This technique came about because I didn't think, and still don't, that we have the best understanding of what really happened, and what is out there is not good enough as it keeps dredging up the same old story, following the same old trails, using the same techniques that still doesn't satisfactorily explain the end result. Time-motion study seems to have taken over for common sense. Along with it standard and well accepted terrain features, not named at the time of the battle, have become melded to arbitrarily stated terrain that is mistaken to mean what was named long after the battle was over. Such high hills, highest points, highest bluff, gorges, coulee's, and ravines all stated without a name or place attached have come to mean where they never were; and as such, imbue myth over the real, and reinforce the lie over the truth.

We don't have participant accounts, whether testimony or not, that are credible enough to bring sense to consensus. And what we do have testimony-wise was something stated 3 years after the battles end when memory melded with what they heard someone else say. That doesn't suggest they lied. It does suggest they forgot or were confused, and we have nothing else to go upon but what we are told by them. And in accord, try as we might, we look for what was plausible and logical to favor instead of what just one man might have stated that was the truth; and it is discarded as so much chum into shark infested waters never to be seriously considered ever again.

While we might think there was no reality involved in a writer/producers movie script, thinking it surely was more complex and dynamic. One of their dominant themes, whether tv western or movie, was the gun runner that sold illegal weapons to the Indians. Muskets, Pistols and Rifles had been traded to the Indians by the Brits and French long before we became a nation, and the spanish long before that. And the Indians traded or bartered for them with their best commodity, furs, which were a high demand necessity at the time. The white settlers also did much the same as the Indians demanded some kind of indemnity for crossing their lands, and it was usually the weapons they wanted. The government was also complicit in the scheme of things as it often sold weapons to the Indians on the pretense they would need a rifle to hunt with, this to pit tribe against tribe, hoping that one would wipe the other out, and in the end the one more peaceful with the whites would prevail.

So what was that technique I mentioned? Instead of trying to build a theory based upon what came first, then next and next to the anticipated end; I started at the end and backfilled in the blanks back to the beginning. From this one is forced not to accept something that wasn't true, but instead have to find what from that end could only have been true. For example: Curley was the only man with the white man there to have observed what went on and lived to tell about it. I wasn't looking for a scapegoat, I wasn't looking for an immediate reasoning as to why they ended up there. What I was concerned with is where Curly was when the battle ended and from there build back to where he had last made comment on where he had been. Obviously it was where Mitch Bouyer had told him to leave, because the troops had been bested. Curley's location while on the battlefield, or near enough, would only be found this way. And there are other important interconnections by what the Indians themselves had to say about that battles end. While the end is often used to premise a theory where so and so a unit went where and wny, little can be gained because they try to find the answers quite literrally, the wrong way.

What I would like everyone to do is pick one participants statements about where they were at battles end and try to build back as far as you can to where they began their tale. Sure, pick up important interconnections to fill in the surrounds (people, places and events) as they present themselves, such things as other statements made by other Indians or even whites that supports what they said. Try it, I think you'll like it and even come to appreciate how it all comes together at the beginning. Oh, and don't be dismayed if you all choose the same character, you would be surprised at how well that works.

[tbw]

Here is a starter for you.

Mitch Bouyer's remains were positively Id'ed and that location was on the SSL near Deep Ravine. Using that as a basis for where Curley might have departed after Bouyer told him to leave. What evidence might there be to support that notion?

We know that Curley went way back, further up the hill from there to where he watched battles' end. And he said he took a north-south coulee after departing Bouyer to get there. And what do you know, Calhoun Coulee being right there is as good as any, for now, to premise it might have been the coulee he was talking about.

Also through various stories, which makes each and every story he told less credible, he told of how he escaped. In one story he told of hiding in the carcas of a disemboweled horse, in another he wrapped himself in a Sioux blanket, and yet another where he hid in a hole or a depression.

1) What about that depression? Well there was Deep Ravine, and for now, that's as good as any. He might not have lied about that. 1 down 2 to go.

2) How about that blanket? I guess its difficult to believe the Indians on a hot summers day would have a blanket out ther convienently for him to find and hide himself. But, there were Indians that told of how they frightened Custer's horses with these 'blankets'. So it too is not far fetched to assume that he might have used one of those that had been left behind.

3) And the disemboweled horse? Hard to fathom that story, but LSH, which wasn't to far away and they had those horses they used as baracades. Would it have been possible with all the shots flying that the shots hitting the horse been enough to have disemboweled it? Its plausible and even possible that one even closer might have been used, but for now we'll say it might have been possible it was one of those on LSH.

Was it possible Curley might have used all three to use in aiding his escape? Don't know, but his plausibility scores have just shot significantly upward.

Lastly he said he used that North-South coulee to escape, which if it was Calhoun Coulee, a likely choice, wouldn't he have been running right into another firestorm of shot, arrow and lance? And what about that disemboweled horse near LSH, if he'd have used it prior to his departure up Calhoun Coulee towards Keogh and Calhoun's position; what did that indicate about those positions being still active at the time?

It only gets better, and the ends provide the means to a beginning.

[stumblingbear]

Wonderful idea! Everything you have posted is so much common sense that I can not but agree with you completely. With so much information to shift through, your idea of picking one member of the battle and then follow his path throughout makes sense.

My knowledge background is not as in-depth as I would like so, I guess I'll choose the one character I feel most comfortable with.

I pick Custer and I ask that ever member be patient with me. This is the first time I have ever felt brave enough to accept a challenge. Also, I would like to acknowledge Dennis for being my long distant tutor who set the example for me to follow and, encouraging me to take a lead!

[tbw]

Approximately 55 men died on what is called the South Skirmish line and the local environment. There are 52 markers on LSH. This totals 107 markers. From identification we know C,E and F company's were located in this area and they comprised a total of:
C = 36

E = 35

F = 33
------
104 men

There was about 12 to 13 men with Custer's HQ which made the total number of men in that area about 116 -117.

What happened there?

First the SSL was thought to be a skirmish line, then later it wasn't. So which was it, a skirmish line or not?

With a 104 men that particular skirmish line should have been about 500 yards long. How long was the SSL? It was about 450 yards long. It might have been longer, but we don't know because of the lack of markers on the northern end of it. But its safe to say that it wasn't at this point because recent finds suggest a detachment was sent even further north and there would have been a natural reason for its existence. So there was a few men missing from this skirmish line that comprised anywhere from what a 50 to 100 yard stretch of skirmish line might have occupied. Because the standard distance apart the men fanned out was about 5 yards, that further northward detachment was anywhere from 10 to 20 men. So how many might it have been? It would have been unfathomable this detachment would have been anything less than a platoon and a platoon from just one of these company's would have been 16-17 for F, 17-18 for E and 18 for C. So it appears at this time the detachment was rather small, maybe about 10 men. The reason for this was the difference in the known total with Custer, about 117 men less the number of markers on LSH and the SSL. This equalling about 10 men.

So what might I be forgetting? Maybe the horseholders? That number should have been about 25 to 26 men holding the horses. This significantly reduces that skirmish line from 104 men to about 78 men or so haveing been on that skirmish line. And that line should have then been, you guessed it, about 400 yards long. So while we are flirting with the actual numbers of troopers to the actual length of the known skrimish line, which was it? 400 yards or 450 yards? While it seems we could possibly split off those 10 troopers assigned further north and then easily account for the minute difference in the skirmish line being about 400 yards, it doesn't work.

What the above figures do tell us is one thing. The SSL was a skirmish line! Those men who were killed there and were buried where they were bludgeoned to death weren't just standing there dumber than a box of rocks wanting or waiting to die - they were fighting for their very lives. And? And Mitch Bouyers remains were found smack dab in the middle of this skirmish line.

Enter, Curley, Reno and Benteen:

Curley in his accounts state that the company's were at one time trying to ford the river "when Custer had to give it up" because around the corner came 100's of mounted warriors, with more coming up from the rear, he then states that Custer, not all the company's - just the HQ, quartered back up on a ridge and from there, from that ridge he headed for the SE corner of the battlefield. He also made a curious but true statement about that retreat, that there were indians on all sides of them, including the stronger force coming up from the rear, and when the arrived to where they did, he couldn't fathom that there weren't that many of them killed on that ride to safety.

What happened then? Lame White Man and Crazy Horse tells that story rather well. Lame white man split Custer's command in two. He didn't do it 'after' Custer had had the opportunity to willingly and freely order any units here, there or for that matter, anywhere - trust me, he didn't, because he couldn't. Because Lame White man's charge split the command after I and L, on that dead mans run back from the river, had already passed the point of his attack, they interrupted Custer's bttn. at that point and split it, right then and there which forced Custer to dismount C,E and F right at that point, so much so that as the Indians told it, they didn't even have the time to hand of their horses to their horseholders. [And no Custer didn't leave any of his company's behind for any modern brainless idea, he took them all north of Deep Ravine for an assault upon that village. I and L went with him.] Those accounts by the Indians telling of those men holding their horses and trying to shoot while holding them were talking about this very time, about C,E and F on the South Skirmish line trying to stave off being surrounded and overran. And Curley along with Bouyer, they were right smack dab in the middle of this maelstom. No, Crazy Horse didn't finish them off by running straight at them up from Deep Ravine or its environs, he had taken his warriors around and up one of the ravines that flank the current access road to Custer's hill. In the process he overran those 10 men sent there to keep watch from that side, they didn't stop, they went right over the hill and hit Custer's SSL in the flank and rolled it up as if it didn't exist. This, right here, this is where the dust reported by one of the women and several of the warriors was so thick you couldn't see what was happening there on that SSL. And this is where the wounded and dying Mitch Bouyer told Curley to leave, that they had been bested by the Indians.

Reno: Reno in his official report said that they didn't have the time on their flight to even set up before they were assaulted by the Indians. And he was right. How did he know? From the positions of those men who had died on that skirmish line who still had their hands gripping the reins of their dead horses? From the pattern and distribution of those troopers and their horses who should have been in clusters or surely not anywhere near where they were found? How he knew is important, that he did know and reported it is pure treasure that adds validity to what the Indians said about that incident. Benteen said much the same thing, only his observation made it evident that the officers didn't die with their company's and the enlisted died as so much scattered corn. There was nothing organized about what Custer did or could have done from that point on. The men about half surviving made a fighting withdrawal to the nearest percieved point of safety -LSH, possibly with a waving Custer encouraging them there, the one time it would have been possible to have observed it to know what it actually meant.

Curley's escape might have came through getting inside a disemboweled horse at that place and at that time. It might have even been at that point he found a blanket and a gun from a dead warrior and slipped into the deep ravine to await a chance to better make his escape. We don't know. But any point of discontent with his stories should be valued for what they were not in lieu of his own ability to survive and preserve his life. How ever he did that, whether it was one, two or by all three, all plausible. He did it, and how he did it is important, when it did it, is important, and now maybe someone might discover how, now we know where he left from and where he ended up.

[joewiggs]

Ironic that you mentioned the "blanket' because many have ridiculed the blanket story as ridiculous as it simply was to darn hot for Indians to have blankets on them. However, testimony reports of Indians waving blankets in order to scare the soldier's horses and cause them to stampede. Also I read that mosquito's were so intense during the time of the battle that many covered themselves in blankets to ward off the bites of the insects.

Of course Curley could not have possibly escaped once the command was fully enclosed. he must have taken off sometime before. after Custer's command departed Calhoun Hill, Indian testimony reports that a part of the command continued north, to and beyond Custer Hill. Both Gray and Fox propose that Custer reached a ford near Squaw Creek during this trek and received no heavy casualties in the process although Kellogg was probably killed during this movement.

While this was taking place, Curley would have ample time to head east from Calhoun Hill during Custer's initial stop without bring detected by the Indians.