Post by tbw on Mar 6, 2013 14:12:30 GMT -5
No greater question can be asked than this one; Did Maj. Reno know that Gen. Custer and his command were in great danger?
The means of information at the disposal of Maj, Reno as to the danger of his commanding officer should have been settled by the testimony of every witness who testified at the Rcoi. The parameters to judge their testimony being borne on the shoulders of their soldier knowledge in context with their own conduct, courage, bravery, judgement and not the least of all the veracity of their words, which trumph's all and gives rise to multiple charges, not the least of which is lying under oath. At the heart of it lay the greater mystery still unsolved, that of mutual support in the face of overwhelming force that confronted each division of that command that threw one command back to a position of the lofty safety of the bluffs, annihalated another and seemingly caused the delay of yet another. Reno's own statements in his official report conflict sharply with his testimony at the court of inquiry. The latter said to be excusable because of the manner in which such information in such official reports are collected, written by others and presented for signature to the commanding officer "for which he is not entirely responsible". Yet at all other times, such a report, with such a signature upon it should stand as immutable and absolute truth for which that officer surely pledges his oath of honesty upon the sacred testament of his written signature on that document to stand any and all test against such a sign and seal being anything less than the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Maj. Reno's testimony was unsupporingly singular in his denial at the court in 1879 that he was informed that there was fighting down the river after he arrived on the hill, June 25, 1876. He stated at the court that he neither heard firing nor was it reported to him at that time. Yet, in his official report he states, "We had heard firing in that direction and knew it could only be Custer." Benteen supported that idea saying he didn't hear any from Custer's field. But, Capt. Godfrey, even his hearing somewhat impaired, in sworn testimony stated that he more or less heard firing from that direction.
But what gives rise, more than anything else, to the truth of the matter was that by the time Reno and his men had attained the heights of the bluffs that the Indians, in majority, had nearly all left Major Reno's theatre of operations, when and where, it was testified to that downstream, at that very time, a great dust and smoke was observed by several witnesses in the direction of the hostile village. It is clear from the testimony presented that Reno, even by his own admission, knew of the presence of the heavy force of the hostiles that lay between he and his own command and Gen. Custer's. And by these means he had every concionable thought in full well knowing that his commanding officer, at that very time, was in great peril. Benteen by his own admission stated to the court these same thoughts, full well knowing these same facts as Reno did, stating in so many ominous words, that had they tried to reach Custer's position that they would have still been there.
While we have all this in evidence, what is often overlooked because of timing errors, is Martin's statement that really sheds more light upon this subject when he said, --General Custer turned round and called his Adjutant and gave him instructions to write a despatch to Capt. Benteen. I don't know what it was (what? The dispatch or the Custers instructions to his adjutant?). Then the Adjutant called me. I was right to the rear of the General (had previously stated within a couple yards of Custer), He said, "Orderly, I want you to take this despatch to Capt. Benteen And go as fast as you can." He also told me if I had time and there was no danger in coming back to do so, but if there was danger or there were any Indians in the way, not to come back, but to remain with my company. My company was with Capt. Benteen, and report to him when I came down there-- Now what did he say again? --if there was danger or there were any Indians in the way, not to come back, but to remain with my company-- As Martin didn't even entertain the thought of going back to Custer at any time, what if any message would and should have, not just Benteen but Reno, have known about Custer's condition when Martin didn't return to Custer? And just as important what does this tell us about that enormous, erronious and oft repeated timing error still monotonously if not monumentally rote toted as more than the lie it is today?
Now, or I should say then, right then and there, there was two people who knew definitively about what danger Custer was in and they were... Tmptr. John Martin and Capt. Fredrick Benteen with his ominous words, that had they tried to reach Custer's position that they would have still been there, as they only way he would have known that at that time, and was the reason for his inaction was he clutching to Reno's skirt tails instead of completing the mission Custer had given him, because he did know it at that time where Custer was and what danger he was in, and if he knew so too did Reno. How did Benteen know? pg 343 -RCOI Martin... I delivered my despatch and told him (Benteen) what Lieut. Cook had told me not to go back if there was any danger and to report to him when my company joined General Custer's command. Then Capt. Benteen took the despatch, read it and put it in his pocket, and gave me an order to take to Capt. McDougall to bring up the pack train and keep it well up.
Timing foul ups and of repeated nonsense - or the truth.
The way history is told today, Martin had to have been in two places at the very same moment in time. And there is no way out of it according to the way the timing is believed to be today.
Martin again, pg 343 After I started from Gen. Custer to go back, I travelled 5 or 600 yards perhaps 3/4 of a mile. I got on the same ridge where General Custer saw the village the first time. On going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno's battalion was engaged. I paid no further attention to it, but went forward on my business. Then I went on to the edge of the stream and about 3 or 400 yards above the creek where we watered our horses, I met Capt. Benteen.
Martin travelled at 'a jog-trot' as reported by Capt. Benteen. This gait would be somewhere in the 8 to 12 mph range, probably on the low end of this as his horse was wounded. If it was 8mph how long would it take him to go 1 1/2 to 2 miles? The 2 mile figure would have taken him 15 minutes, while the 1 1/2 mile figure would have taken him about 12 minutes. This is what he said, "Q. From that place where you looked down and saw Major Reno's battalion engaged - can you tell how long it was after that before you got to Capt. Benteen?
A. I judge it was 15 or 20 minutes.
Prior to this his greatest mileage from where Custer gave him that order was 3/4ths of a mile, the least being just 500 to 600 yards. This time, for the 3/4ths mile figure, still using the jog-trot mph, it would have taken him about 5 1/2 minutes to have gotten back on that "same hill", while the shorter distances would have been about 1/2 that time at 2 1/2 minutes. Total time to get back to Benteen from where he left Custer? 17 1/2 minutes to 25 1/2 minutes with the total distance variance being about 2 1/4 mile up to 2 3/4ths miles.
Curiously we then have this testimony...
Q. How far was the point you left General Custer from the place where Major Reno made his stand?
A. I don't know. I could not judge. It was 5 or 600 yards or probably 3/4 of a mile.
For those not comprehending this, this mileage, as stated, was the exact same mileage he stated when he told how far it was from where Custer gave him his orders 'back to that same hill'. But watch....
Q. That place from which you saw the village and children,, dogs and ponies, was it the highest point down the river below where Major Reno made his stand?
A. Yes sir, the highest hill; the very highest point around there.
Q.. When you moved down afterwards did some of the troops go on that high hill?
A. No sir.
And for the coup-de-grace... Q. How far was that high point from the head of the ravine you speak of?
A. About 500 yards. (So it wasn't 600 up to 3/4ths of a mile from where he left Custer, and it wasn't the same back to where Reno made his (first) stand, it was 500 yards and "not the same hill"! But, from that "same hill' to where he departed Custer is a hell of a lot longer than 500 yards for the place he marked on the Maguire map! So, what was going on here? Is anyone willing to bet a country mile is a hellova alot shorter than a country hour?
Q. From the time you had seen Major Reno fighting in the timber how many miles had you traveled?
A. I judge about 2 miles up the river.
Q. How long were you in coming back after you met Capt. Benteen to the spot you met Major Reno?
A. I judge it took 3/4 of anhour (mile) or an hour (mile) to come back.
Q. How long (expected this in hours/minutes etc) did it take you to go from General Custer to Capt. Benteen do you suppose?
A. I can't tell. I judge I went 5 miles. (Martin answers in MILES!)
Q. How long do you suppose it took you to go that distance?
A. I think it took anhour (mile) or an hour (mile) and a quarter or an hour (mile) and a half. I can't tell as I had no watch.
Q. If it took you anhour (mile) and a half to go from General Custer to Capt. Benteen and an hour (mile) and a half to come back from Capt. Benteen to where you met Major Reno, then it was two hours (miles) and a half from the time you left General Custer till you met Major Reno coming up the hill?
A. I was about anhour (mile) and a half going from General Custer to Capt. Benteen because it was a long distance. I can't say whether the whole time was two or three hours (miles).
Q. Might it not be less than twohours (miles) and a half from the time you left General Custer till you found Major Reno coming up the hill?
A. I judge it was about anhour (1 mile) after I delivered that despatch.
Q. Then it took you about anhour (mile) and a half to deliver the despatch? (500 yards of which is also accounted for in this mile and a half from the time he left Custer... meaning that when he topped that "same hill" Benteen was only about 1 1/4th mile away!
A. Yes sir.
Still not grasping it yet? From where he left Custer it was 500 yards back to that "same hill", from there it was only 1 1/4th of a mile back to where he met Benteen! How far away from that "same hill were they when Benteen, with Martin in tow, met up with Reno? The difference, and the court knew it (and was the reasoning for that lengthy cross examination) was about 1/4th of a mile (about 500 yards), but this other hill (not the "same one") was the same distance (500 yards) from where he had left Custer! And no this high point Martin talked about wasn't Weir Peak or for that matter anywhere near there. And most surprising of all, this: Q. What time in the day was it when you saw the Indian village where you and General Custer looked at it?
A. I Judge its was about 12 o'clock.
And he was 100% correct, the only 'time' when he was directly asked about 'time' that he didn't answer with a mileage figure, and for good reason, "what time in the day was it".
More later...
The means of information at the disposal of Maj, Reno as to the danger of his commanding officer should have been settled by the testimony of every witness who testified at the Rcoi. The parameters to judge their testimony being borne on the shoulders of their soldier knowledge in context with their own conduct, courage, bravery, judgement and not the least of all the veracity of their words, which trumph's all and gives rise to multiple charges, not the least of which is lying under oath. At the heart of it lay the greater mystery still unsolved, that of mutual support in the face of overwhelming force that confronted each division of that command that threw one command back to a position of the lofty safety of the bluffs, annihalated another and seemingly caused the delay of yet another. Reno's own statements in his official report conflict sharply with his testimony at the court of inquiry. The latter said to be excusable because of the manner in which such information in such official reports are collected, written by others and presented for signature to the commanding officer "for which he is not entirely responsible". Yet at all other times, such a report, with such a signature upon it should stand as immutable and absolute truth for which that officer surely pledges his oath of honesty upon the sacred testament of his written signature on that document to stand any and all test against such a sign and seal being anything less than the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Maj. Reno's testimony was unsupporingly singular in his denial at the court in 1879 that he was informed that there was fighting down the river after he arrived on the hill, June 25, 1876. He stated at the court that he neither heard firing nor was it reported to him at that time. Yet, in his official report he states, "We had heard firing in that direction and knew it could only be Custer." Benteen supported that idea saying he didn't hear any from Custer's field. But, Capt. Godfrey, even his hearing somewhat impaired, in sworn testimony stated that he more or less heard firing from that direction.
But what gives rise, more than anything else, to the truth of the matter was that by the time Reno and his men had attained the heights of the bluffs that the Indians, in majority, had nearly all left Major Reno's theatre of operations, when and where, it was testified to that downstream, at that very time, a great dust and smoke was observed by several witnesses in the direction of the hostile village. It is clear from the testimony presented that Reno, even by his own admission, knew of the presence of the heavy force of the hostiles that lay between he and his own command and Gen. Custer's. And by these means he had every concionable thought in full well knowing that his commanding officer, at that very time, was in great peril. Benteen by his own admission stated to the court these same thoughts, full well knowing these same facts as Reno did, stating in so many ominous words, that had they tried to reach Custer's position that they would have still been there.
While we have all this in evidence, what is often overlooked because of timing errors, is Martin's statement that really sheds more light upon this subject when he said, --General Custer turned round and called his Adjutant and gave him instructions to write a despatch to Capt. Benteen. I don't know what it was (what? The dispatch or the Custers instructions to his adjutant?). Then the Adjutant called me. I was right to the rear of the General (had previously stated within a couple yards of Custer), He said, "Orderly, I want you to take this despatch to Capt. Benteen And go as fast as you can." He also told me if I had time and there was no danger in coming back to do so, but if there was danger or there were any Indians in the way, not to come back, but to remain with my company. My company was with Capt. Benteen, and report to him when I came down there-- Now what did he say again? --if there was danger or there were any Indians in the way, not to come back, but to remain with my company-- As Martin didn't even entertain the thought of going back to Custer at any time, what if any message would and should have, not just Benteen but Reno, have known about Custer's condition when Martin didn't return to Custer? And just as important what does this tell us about that enormous, erronious and oft repeated timing error still monotonously if not monumentally rote toted as more than the lie it is today?
Now, or I should say then, right then and there, there was two people who knew definitively about what danger Custer was in and they were... Tmptr. John Martin and Capt. Fredrick Benteen with his ominous words, that had they tried to reach Custer's position that they would have still been there, as they only way he would have known that at that time, and was the reason for his inaction was he clutching to Reno's skirt tails instead of completing the mission Custer had given him, because he did know it at that time where Custer was and what danger he was in, and if he knew so too did Reno. How did Benteen know? pg 343 -RCOI Martin... I delivered my despatch and told him (Benteen) what Lieut. Cook had told me not to go back if there was any danger and to report to him when my company joined General Custer's command. Then Capt. Benteen took the despatch, read it and put it in his pocket, and gave me an order to take to Capt. McDougall to bring up the pack train and keep it well up.
Timing foul ups and of repeated nonsense - or the truth.
The way history is told today, Martin had to have been in two places at the very same moment in time. And there is no way out of it according to the way the timing is believed to be today.
Martin again, pg 343 After I started from Gen. Custer to go back, I travelled 5 or 600 yards perhaps 3/4 of a mile. I got on the same ridge where General Custer saw the village the first time. On going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno's battalion was engaged. I paid no further attention to it, but went forward on my business. Then I went on to the edge of the stream and about 3 or 400 yards above the creek where we watered our horses, I met Capt. Benteen.
Martin travelled at 'a jog-trot' as reported by Capt. Benteen. This gait would be somewhere in the 8 to 12 mph range, probably on the low end of this as his horse was wounded. If it was 8mph how long would it take him to go 1 1/2 to 2 miles? The 2 mile figure would have taken him 15 minutes, while the 1 1/2 mile figure would have taken him about 12 minutes. This is what he said, "Q. From that place where you looked down and saw Major Reno's battalion engaged - can you tell how long it was after that before you got to Capt. Benteen?
A. I judge it was 15 or 20 minutes.
Prior to this his greatest mileage from where Custer gave him that order was 3/4ths of a mile, the least being just 500 to 600 yards. This time, for the 3/4ths mile figure, still using the jog-trot mph, it would have taken him about 5 1/2 minutes to have gotten back on that "same hill", while the shorter distances would have been about 1/2 that time at 2 1/2 minutes. Total time to get back to Benteen from where he left Custer? 17 1/2 minutes to 25 1/2 minutes with the total distance variance being about 2 1/4 mile up to 2 3/4ths miles.
Curiously we then have this testimony...
Q. How far was the point you left General Custer from the place where Major Reno made his stand?
A. I don't know. I could not judge. It was 5 or 600 yards or probably 3/4 of a mile.
For those not comprehending this, this mileage, as stated, was the exact same mileage he stated when he told how far it was from where Custer gave him his orders 'back to that same hill'. But watch....
Q. That place from which you saw the village and children,, dogs and ponies, was it the highest point down the river below where Major Reno made his stand?
A. Yes sir, the highest hill; the very highest point around there.
Q.. When you moved down afterwards did some of the troops go on that high hill?
A. No sir.
And for the coup-de-grace... Q. How far was that high point from the head of the ravine you speak of?
A. About 500 yards. (So it wasn't 600 up to 3/4ths of a mile from where he left Custer, and it wasn't the same back to where Reno made his (first) stand, it was 500 yards and "not the same hill"! But, from that "same hill' to where he departed Custer is a hell of a lot longer than 500 yards for the place he marked on the Maguire map! So, what was going on here? Is anyone willing to bet a country mile is a hellova alot shorter than a country hour?
Q. From the time you had seen Major Reno fighting in the timber how many miles had you traveled?
A. I judge about 2 miles up the river.
Q. How long were you in coming back after you met Capt. Benteen to the spot you met Major Reno?
A. I judge it took 3/4 of an
Q. How long (expected this in hours/minutes etc) did it take you to go from General Custer to Capt. Benteen do you suppose?
A. I can't tell. I judge I went 5 miles. (Martin answers in MILES!)
Q. How long do you suppose it took you to go that distance?
A. I think it took an
Q. If it took you an
A. I was about an
Q. Might it not be less than two
A. I judge it was about an
Q. Then it took you about an
A. Yes sir.
Still not grasping it yet? From where he left Custer it was 500 yards back to that "same hill", from there it was only 1 1/4th of a mile back to where he met Benteen! How far away from that "same hill were they when Benteen, with Martin in tow, met up with Reno? The difference, and the court knew it (and was the reasoning for that lengthy cross examination) was about 1/4th of a mile (about 500 yards), but this other hill (not the "same one") was the same distance (500 yards) from where he had left Custer! And no this high point Martin talked about wasn't Weir Peak or for that matter anywhere near there. And most surprising of all, this: Q. What time in the day was it when you saw the Indian village where you and General Custer looked at it?
A. I Judge its was about 12 o'clock.
And he was 100% correct, the only 'time' when he was directly asked about 'time' that he didn't answer with a mileage figure, and for good reason, "what time in the day was it".
More later...
As for your second quiz, I think Weir started off in Custer's direction without permission from Reno. right? 