Responsibility along the LBH

[joewiggs]

Sept 1, 2013 14:10:15 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

Your thesis is (as usual) is on the money and makes perfect sense. I have been trying to separate my personal feelings from the 'facts" of the battle here of late to avoid the pitfalls you have so accurately described. I believe I'm now on the right track arguing that Reno is not the vilest soldier who ever existed although his battle decisions were (I think) deplorable.

Accordingly, we as students of the battle must be careful at what we read and translate so as not to distort the facts. Something I feel that both of us have ardently tried to do.

You mention Godfrey's statement regarding the hearing or not hearing of "volley's" coming from the direction of Custer's battle field. I believed Godfrey said," I heard firing." The Reno Court of Inquiry by Graham, page #176, does agree with you:

According to Benteen, "I have heard no officers disputing about hearing volleys. I heard no volleys!"...that's pretty emphatic!

Then there's Reno: "I heard no firing from down river till after we moved out in that direction and then only a few scattering shots." Depending on who's work you read Reno heard not a sound of battle for up to one hour and a half!
Let us not forget Wallace:"Whether their [Custer]. I heard none."


The information of these three officers (including Godfrey) conclude little or no firing. Should this not end the disagreement of facts?

Churchill: "I heard no firing for about one and a half hours;then heard it down the river. I took it to be volleys and spoke of it to some of the men. I heard four or five volleys. it seemed to be 21/2 to 3 miles away."

Sgt. Culbertson: We heard firing from down below. At first it was a couple of volleys, very heavy."


Sgt. Davern: Shortly after reaching the top I heard volley firing.

Lt. DeRudio: "I could hear immense volleys on the other side of the village. the fire lasted probably an hour and a half."

Lt. Edgerly: "Shortly after I got on the hill, almost immediately, I heard firing and remarked it--heavy firing, by volleys.


Thus far, the five witnesses specifically used the term"volley(s) to describe what Benteen, Reno, and Wallace did not hear! later, I will submit additional witnesses who will also testify to the same.

As a retire Police officer, six years a Detective, while achieving the rank of Captain, I can vouch for the following : What we remember and/or report about an incident is is in direct correlation of our involvement (good or bad) with that event.

Reno and Benteen could not report the sound of "volleys" without making an admission of not responding to those sounds;a Court-martial offense!

Yet, there are individuals who will argue until the cows come home that no volleys occurred because Reno and Benteen said so. Wallace had no reason to do what he did other than the chance of promotion which he received. In a historical era wherein promotions were far and few between (not counted in months but years) Wallace's good luck was,indeed, fortunate.

Therein lies my inability to comprehend those individual you have spoken of who insist that Custer was wiped out before Reno reached the summit of the hill or shortly there after.

In conclusion, what reason did the "volley" hearers have to resort to falsehood? What was their reward? Nothing, zilch, de nada, except to be labeled, "liars" or disregarded,defamed, or ignored by some students.

I personally am familiar with a student who believes Edgerly to be an epitome of an Officer and a Gentleman; a conclusion I partially adhere too. She also believes every statement he has uttered is factual except the one I have listed above. The reason? It contradicts with Benteen therefore, in this instance, Edgerly must have been mistaken. I guess we all must draw our own conclusions.

Additional witnesses:
Girard: "I heard continuous firing clear on down as if there was a general engagement, down to where I afterward went to the village; 3 or 4 volleys as if there were 50 to 100 guns as a volley. Lt. Rudio was with me and he said, 'by God, there's Custer coming;let's go and join him.'

Godfrey:
"I heard firing. It was in the direction generally towards our front as we marching: at first I only heard a few shots-then I heard heavy firing."

Hare:
"Also I heard firing down there just after Benteen came up. My attention was called to it by Capt. Godfrey. He asked if I heard that volley. I said yes, I heard two distinct volleys.

(Godfrey was,reportedly, near deaf!

"Who said they didn't hear the gunfire? Not surprisingly, it was Major Reno. At his Court of Inquiry Reno testified that he only heard a few scattered shots. he further stated that the firing was so light it didn't give the impression of a general engagement. Reno's official report [written within days of the battle] suggested otherwise. 'We could hear firing in that direction and knew it could only be Custer."
Vanishing Victory page 122

The above clearly shows that Benteen, Reno, and Wallace lied! The question is why did they lie?

(To be Continued)

[joewiggs]

Sept 2, 2013 21:38:25 GMT -5 tbw said:

"until Weir's movement;approximately 1 1/2 hours later!!!"

This is another one of those myths that keeps on going like some kind of everyready bunny. At worst that pack train arrived there about 1/2 hour later, not an hour and a half later as Benteen would have us believe. It took Hare about 20 minutes, ROUND TRIP to go to that pack train and back!!! And those ammo packs he requested were right on his heels, eating his dust! That pack train wasn't over 1 & 1/2 miles from them when Hare was sent, not the 7 Benteen reported.

Did Benteen lie? Not really, one has to know exactly what he was saying, and like he said after the RCOI, even they couldn't get it out of him.

The point I am endeavoring to make is why wait at all? A tenet of the nineteenth century Calvary was to always "Respond to the Sound of firing."

Hare stated at Reno's Inquiry the following, "It was fully three quarters of an hour from the time benteen joined before the command moved down in Custer's direction."
(Graham's condensed Reno Court of Inquiry p.96)

"As for Hare, he confused the chronology of the events on Reno Hill by ignoring Reno's half hour, as he told Walter Camp, about ten minutes after Benteen came up, Reno sent him to the packs."
Vanishing Victory p.123

There is a psychological truism that has been and always will remain in the psyche of Man, once a mind is made up it tends to abhor facts to the contrary. Col. Graham arranged all of the witness testimony in such a manner as to make the assimilation of the information easy for the average reader. Yet, he died believing that Reno, Benteen, and Wallace told the truth!
To Be Continued:

[joewiggs]

Sept 11, 2013 15:06:01 GMT -5 tbw said:

There is for sure one thing that must be when it comes to trying to time all events out in this battle. And that is the times stated by those with Reno in the valley can't be any less nor any more than what they said it was. And in lock step with what Reno's men in the valley stated, for those who rode with Custer and survived, not to be any more, nor any less than the rate of speed they all stated Custer and his troops took down that right bank. DeRudio, Girard, Herendeen and Varnum's testimony all point to a time that was 1) 10 - 12 minutes from Reno's SL setup until they had retreated into the woods. And. 10 - 12 minutes for the SL in the timber upon which at the end of they immediately began their retreat to the bluffs. This time, when added to Varnum's total retreat time of 7 to 8 minutes places Reno atop those bluffs from 27/28 to 31/32 minutes after the SL set up.

I have to respectably disagree! What Reno and his men said was motivated by a desire to camouflage their actions that would have been viewed as cowardly, unprofessional, failure to support Custer, etc. to they who would later judge them. As a result, Reno and Co. would find it necessary to expand the time they were in the timber to enhance their bravery in staying their before,ultimately, escaping in order to save their lives. In actuality, Reno panicked and departed from a very defensible area
Joe Wiggs.

IN complete accord with this is the timing from when and where Girard said he saw Custer's troops on the bluffs, near Reno's Hill, at about 8 to 9 minutes after the SL had set up. That time from near Reno's hill to when they arrived at one of the lower fords, taking them from 28 to 32 minutes. This figured at an 11 mph lope (slow gallop) gait matches what those who rode Custer said, as it matches almost precisely the same time, 28 to 32 minutes traveling time for them to have arrived at that lower ford.

Sound right?

From SL setup, no.

It was 8 to 9 minutes after the SL had set up when Girard observed those troops on the bluffs at or near Reno's Hill. This means that Custer's troops would have arrived at that lower ford some 8 to 9 minutes after Reno had arrived atop the bluffs. The earliest time for Custer to be there was 27 minutes + 8 & 9 respeciveley would have been at 35/36 minute time mark from SL set up. The latest time would have been at the 40/41 time mark from SL setup. In either event that 8 to 9 minute time frame fits when those on the bluffs and Girard/DeRudio in the bottom said they heard those volleys being fired downstream, ie. from 5 to 10 minutes after Reno made his arrival there, which 8 to 9 minutes fits within. Make sense?

So far this timing has proven impeccible. But will it still hold up without moving the goal posts so the field goal kicker can't miss his score?

Lt. DeRudio:

He doesn't seem to have been the Linebacker type. But lets see if he sways anyone, including ref's. into moving those goal posts by crying foul or a instead convincing non-penalty block.

DeRudio made it clear that when he saw Custer and Cooke atop the bluff that it was 4 minutes later when the retreat to the bluffs began. And he should have known, because he couldn't stop or control his men from leaving. So 4 minutes should not be mistaken for 14 or 24. There have been proposals over the years where DeRudio's sighting might have been. But if this timing, as previously proposed here is right, then when he said he made that sighting and where DeRudio made his sighting should be able to fit within it. Does it?

Again, we'll work at this from both ends. SL setup & Reno's arrival on the hill.

Varnums estimate of 7 to 8 minutes duration for the retreat + DeRudio's 4 minutes before it did retreat means that his sighting event happened 11 to 12 minutes before Reno had arrived on the hill. And, it also means that his sighting event happened 19 to 21 minutes before the volley firing downstream happened. From the earliest time as researched above, the 35/36 minute mark for Custer to have arrived downstream and where that earliest time that it could have possibly been heard would have happened 15 to 16 minutes earlier than it did, according to this timing. And at the latest 40/41, would have meant that Custer's heavy volley fire would have occurred 24/25 minutes before it did, according to this timing.

In the first instance the earliest, 15 to 16 minutes before would mean that Reno arrived on the hill 12 to 15 minutes after the sL had set up!

In the 2nd instance 19 to 21, they'd have heard the volley firing downstream 23 to 25 minutes after the sL had set up!

Plausible? In several instances noted below.

Varnum and his compatriots (Hare & Davern) out front of the mounted and galloping SL noted several anomolies in their timing. Only if these anomolies meant what I think they might mean, does DeRudio's time make any sense in this abbreviated version of a time line.

Varnum testified that he rode back to the timber after the SL had set up, yet, DeRudio, Girard and Herendeen made statements that said the open SL only lasted from 10 min (Girard, Herendeen) to 12 minutes (Derudio).

Varnum was ahead of the command with his scouts with the warriors 500 feet before him, "they stopped and turned back and as they did so I glanced back and saw the column deploying into line." Varnum later stated that the scouts "disappeared." What they did was continue toward the Sioux (three of them died as a result) while Varnum retreated. Varnum later referred to them as acting in a cowardly manner."
Joe wiggs

Did Varnum stay longer, like from 4 to 5 minutes longer before retreating into the timber? This does make a certain amount of sense, the maneuver into the timber might have taken them that long to perform, so while his statments seems out of line, it might not be. Also Davern and Hare confirmed each others statements about what they did. Both claimed that when they got back from their 200 yard ahead of the SL foray, that the Skirmish line had already been withdrawn to the timber. Does it really take 15 minutes, or for that matter 10 minutes to go back 200 yards where Varnum made claim he did as that SL set up? There seems to be one recurring theme to the firing that was going on at that time as evidenced by Herendeen's statements about that firing. They were slow firing, about a round a minute. Not that the men on the Skirmish line were, but that they (those not on SL) were. Davern testified and Hare confirmed that he, Davern had fired about 3 to 4 shots at some Indians about 300 yards distance from where they were. This before going back to the SL. That indicates that they might have been out there firing at them for about 4 to 5 minutes or so before they retreated back to the SL. This still doesn't account for the other 5 (Girard, Herendeen) to 10 (Varnum) minutes it took them to get back to observe that SL in the timber.

Still if we use their statements in accord with Varnum's, that 15 minutes it took him to get to the timber after the SL had set up seems to make sense if that retreat into the timber (15 minutes) was when DeRudio spys Custer on the hill. And then 4 minutes later they begin their retreat to the hill. Does this seem right? Well maybe. Both Hare and Davern stated that when they got there the "left of the SL" was already in the timber. They also stated that they stopped there and fired off yet another 3 to 4 rounds (4-5 min) before being called to their horses and they began their "run" to the bluffs. If it was this way, then DeRudio's statements means something about the veracity of Varnum's, Hare's and Davern's statements concerning when that time could have been.

I honestly believe that it was less than two minutes for Varnum's speedy return to the line.
Joe Wiggs

Can Varnum's further testimony be helpful in this? It seems so, because while Davern and Hare had stopped 4 to 5 minutes on the "left of the firing line" to fire their shots, he, Varnum had traveled further to the where the right of the SL lay. This being where Girard testifed he and Reynolds were. Here it seems that flask had a certain draw that day, as Varnum stated he stayed there about 3 to 4 minutes with them, more interested in the flask than the fight when the retreat to the hills began. If the traverse time for Varnum to the right of the SL took about 2 minutes, which can be proven* that it did, then those 20 minutes of the SL firing (both in and out of the woods) testified by all to be the right time still makes sense! AS Varnums time before that retreat began still adds up to about 20 minutes, the same 20 minutes everyone else comes up with, to include Reno, Varnum, Girard, Herendeen and DeRudio. And if this is the case, which no doubt it was, then DeRudio observed Custer 15 minutes after the SL had set up AND 11 to 12 minutes before Reno arrived on the bluffs, and some 19 to 21 minutes before they heard the heavy volley fire downstream.

Note: * Herendeen testified that it took him about 5 minutes to go down into the timber and then come back out to where he fended off some 20 to 25 Indians before he went back to see why the SL firing had died. That 5 minutes, as arbitrary as it was, then is halved to find out the half way distance (this being when and where he tied his horse) before making his way back out (2 1/2 minutes). This two and one half minutes then becomes the traverse time across the open glade to the right of the skirmish line where Girard, Reynold and ultimately Varnum all ended up together.

So, how does all this affect the timeline so far established? NIL. But, what it does do is eliminate DeRudio's "12 minutes" for the SL inside and out and leaves only the 10 minutes for each as testified to by he everyone else.

If none of this affects the timeline, then just where could have DeRudio have seen Custer and Cooke?

If DeRudio sights Custer 15 minutes after the SL had set up. And if Girard sighted the troops on the bluffs at "d" in the word command, about Reno Hill, then He would have sighted Custer 6-7 minutes after Girard made that sighting at Reno Hill. From Reno hill to the much tauted 3411 is about 1/4th mile. If it was there, then it only took Custer to continue on about 1 1/2 minute where he would have had to have stayed there gawking for more than a minute, in fact 3 & 1/2 minutes before DeRudio should have witnessed it. This would have been the earliest opportunity, but it doesn't match what those who were with Custer stated was done on that ride. IN fact the last place Custer could have been seen was about 1.1 to 1.3 miles downstream from Reno hill. Where he would have been standing not for over a minute longer to have gone on downstream to present the firing that was later heard when it should have been and was indeed heard and not one minute, let alone 3 and 1/2 minutes to late. "at a gallop all the way" -- "on the jump, didn't stop" etc.

Just one question: Is this timing right? Or. Is this just all an illusion? What do any of you think?

The testimony of all members of the Reno/Benteen forum are suspect as they only fled the field to save their lives, abandoning Custer in the process. I do not blame them, I do not judge them, and certainly do not feel they did anything dis-honorable (Reno being the exception) but, their statements are motivated by mortification.
Joe Wiggs

Are we there yet?
Not quite, stay tuned, the best is yet to come...

[joewiggs]

Sept 14, 2013 18:12:20 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

Sept 1, 2013 14:10:15 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

Your thesis is (as usual) is on the money and makes perfect sense. I have been trying to separate my personal feelings from the 'facts" of the battle here of late to avoid the pitfalls you have so accurately described. I believe I'm now on the right track arguing that Reno is not the vilest soldier who ever existed although his battle decisions were (I think) deplorable.

Accordingly, we as students of the battle must be careful at what we read and translate so as not to distort the facts. Something I feel that both of us have ardently tried to do.

You mention Godfrey's statement regarding the hearing or not hearing of "volley's" coming from the direction of Custer's battle field. I believed Godfrey said," I heard firing." The Reno Court of Inquiry by Graham, page #176, does agree with you:

According to Benteen, "I have heard no officers disputing about hearing volleys. I heard no volleys!"...that's pretty emphatic!

Then there's Reno: "I heard no firing from down river till after we moved out in that direction and then only a few scattering shots." Depending on who's work you read Reno heard not a sound of battle for up to one hour and a half!
Let us not forget Wallace:"Whether their [Custer]. I heard none."


The information of these three officers (including Godfrey) conclude little or no firing. Should this not end the disagreement of facts?

Churchill: "I heard no firing for about one and a half hours;then heard it down the river. I took it to be volleys and spoke of it to some of the men. I heard four or five volleys. it seemed to be 21/2 to 3 miles away."

Sgt. Culbertson: We heard firing from down below. At first it was a couple of volleys, very heavy."


Sgt. Davern: Shortly after reaching the top I heard volley firing.

Lt. DeRudio: "I could hear immense volleys on the other side of the village. the fire lasted probably an hour and a half."

Lt. Edgerly: "Shortly after I got on the hill, almost immediately, I heard firing and remarked it--heavy firing, by volleys.


Thus far, the five witnesses specifically used the term"volley(s) to describe what Benteen, Reno, and Wallace did not hear! later, I will submit additional witnesses who will also testify to the same.

As a retire Police officer, six years a Detective, while achieving the rank of Captain, I can vouch for the following : What we remember and/or report about an incident is is in direct correlation of our involvement (good or bad) with that event.

Reno and Benteen could not report the sound of "volleys" without making an admission of not responding to those sounds;a Court-martial offense!

Yet, there are individuals who will argue until the cows come home that no volleys occurred because Reno and Benteen said so. Wallace had no reason to do what he did other than the chance of promotion which he received. In a historical era wherein promotions were far and few between (not counted in months but years) Wallace's good luck was,indeed, fortunate.

Therein lies my inability to comprehend those individual you have spoken of who insist that Custer was wiped out before Reno reached the summit of the hill or shortly there after.

In conclusion, what reason did the "volley" hearers have to resort to falsehood? What was their reward? Nothing, zilch, de nada, except to be labeled, "liars" or disregarded,defamed, or ignored by some students.

I personally am familiar with a student who believes Edgerly to be an epitome of an Officer and a Gentleman; a conclusion I partially adhere too. She also believes every statement he has uttered is factual except the one I have listed above. The reason? It contradicts with Benteen therefore, in this instance, Edgerly must have been mistaken. I guess we all must draw our own conclusions.

Additional witnesses:
Girard: "I heard continuous firing clear on down as if there was a general engagement, down to where I afterward went to the village; 3 or 4 volleys as if there were 50 to 100 guns as a volley. Lt. Rudio was with me and he said, 'by God, there's Custer coming;let's go and join him.'

Godfrey:
"I heard firing. It was in the direction generally towards our front as we marching: at first I only heard a few shots-then I heard heavy firing."

Hare:
"Also I heard firing down there just after Benteen came up. My attention was called to it by Capt. Godfrey. He asked if I heard that volley. I said yes, I heard two distinct volleys.

(Godfrey was,reportedly, near deaf!

"Who said they didn't hear the gunfire? Not surprisingly, it was Major Reno. At his Court of Inquiry Reno testified that he only heard a few scattered shots. he further stated that the firing was so light it didn't give the impression of a general engagement. Reno's official report [written within days of the battle] suggested otherwise. 'We could hear firing in that direction and knew it could only be Custer."
Vanishing Victory page 122

The above clearly shows that Benteen, Reno, and Wallace lied! The question is why did they lie?

(To be Continued)

Herendeen:

"After we had been in there some time, a half hour or less, I heard firing. It began in volleys. I heard a great many volleys and between them, and after they ceased, scattering shots It came from down stream, from the direction of Custer's battlefield. It lasted about an hour."*
* An hour in which Reno and Co. sat on their hill.

MacDougall:

The firing I heard was from the north, on my right as I went toward the Little Big Horn, downstream. it was just two volleys. I told Major Reno about it and he said: 'Captain, I lost your Lieutenant and he is laying down there.'

The purpose of this thread is not to denigrate any particular individual but, to reveal a terrible, obnoxious, and horrific "lie" that has distorted a historical truth regarding this battle:for well over an hour Reno and company sat on their hands while Custer and his men were being assailed and killed. What other "lies" were promulgated by Reno, Benteen, and Wallace? The truth of this battle in nigh impossible as it is! thanks to a few culprits, we must re-visit issues and bring the darkness of subterfuge to light!

[whitebull]

Well, it's no doubt that too many witnesses heard the "volleys" for three to not! It gets even more interesting when two of the three are Reno and Benteen.

I don't blame Reno for getting out of the timber when he did. There just to many Indians. I don't blame him for waiting the ammo packs either, otherwise, it would be foolish to go into a big engagement with out taking as much ammo as you can carry. What I don't get is the way he ran out. Second, when the pack's came up all Reno could report was that his "lieutenant was laying down there." What about the five companies and Custer who were still fighting While Reno cooled his heels for over an hour.

I agree with Joe, they lied. If one lie could be overlooked how many others could be overlooked as well? Why did they lie? Benteen and Reno I kind of get. Reno embarrassed himself and Benteen did not move as fast as he probably should. What I don't get is Wallace? he backed up everything Reno said to a Tee! Why did he do it what did he gain? Answer me that and I would really said you got something.

[tbw]

Joe check your pm's.

Thanks

[stumblingbear]

Sept 14, 2013 18:44:11 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

Sept 2, 2013 21:38:25 GMT -5 tbw said:

"until Weir's movement;approximately 1 1/2 hours later!!!"

This is another one of those myths that keeps on going like some kind of everyready bunny. At worst that pack train arrived there about 1/2 hour later, not an hour and a half later as Benteen would have us believe. It took Hare about 20 minutes, ROUND TRIP to go to that pack train and back!!! And those ammo packs he requested were right on his heels, eating his dust! That pack train wasn't over 1 & 1/2 miles from them when Hare was sent, not the 7 Benteen reported.

Did Benteen lie? Not really, one has to know exactly what he was saying, and like he said after the RCOI, even they couldn't get it out of him.

The point I am endeavoring to make is why wait at all? A tenet of the nineteenth century Calvary was to always "Respond to the Sound of firing."

Hare stated at Reno's Inquiry the following, "It was fully three quarters of an hour from the time benteen joined before the command moved down in Custer's direction."
(Graham's condensed Reno Court of Inquiry p.96)

"As for Hare, he confused the chronology of the events on Reno Hill by ignoring Reno's half hour, as he told Walter Camp, about ten minutes after Benteen came up, Reno sent him to the packs."
Vanishing Victory p.123

There is a psychological truism that has been and always will remain in the psyche of Man, once a mind is made up it tends to abhor facts to the contrary. Col. Graham arranged all of the witness testimony in such a manner as to make the assimilation of the information easy for the average reader. Yet, he died believing that Reno, Benteen, and Wallace told the truth!
To Be Continued:

It is just so heard to swallow the idea that Benteen and Reno waited over an hour while Custer and his men were being killed! It's just to hard to believe. I'm thinking that any attempt to move toward Custer by Reno and Benteen may have allowed Custer to escape with,at least, some of his men. It must have taken some time before the Indians were able to completely surround Last Stand Hill.

In the meantime, a small corridor of escape could have been used to save some of the men. An hour's wait before doing anything makes no sense!

[joewiggs]

Very understandable SB. After the battle, Benteen painted a picture of tantamount suicide based solely on hindsight if he were to attempt to save Custer:

"We were at their hearth and homes, their medicine was working well, and they were fighting for all the good God gives anyone to fight for."
When we remember What Benteen stated to all who would listen shortly after arriving on Reno Hill --"I believe it's another Elliot affair" inferring that Custer had deserted he and Reno, we see his lofty and sanctimonious statement for what it really was; a crock of cow manure.

The only actual items of reality Benteen was able to use to estimate the amount of Indians, their fighting ability, and whether "God" was supporting the warriors was the following: The sound of volleys which he denied hearing. As he did not respond until it was too late, his lofty and sentimental reference to the Indians was a result of information received after the battle.

Only then, did the amount of warriors, their ability to fight, and God became Benteen's alibi for not responding to the sound of battle!

[whitebull]

I've been trying to wrap my head around the fact that nobody moved toward Custer for over an hour. What did they think was going on?
I have been reading To Hell with Honor, a real good book, and on page 243 I found this.

"I remember , as I rode back to my command, the last remark I ever made to him was - Let us keep together. In his jaunty way he lifted his broad brimmed hat as much to say, "I hear you."

Didn't Reno testify at Court that he was never with Custer, never got order's from Custer, and didn't have any idea about battle plans? Well hell's bell's, here was a opportunity to get all that info from the man himself!!!

[joewiggs]

WB, you keep reading. Read every book you can find regarding this battle. Take no information as Gospel until you have collected enough perspectives by various authors that will then allow you to extrapolate probable cause for incidents based upon rational causes.

This will enable you to drawn your own conclusions as to the probability of "truth" or "untruth."

Please remember that the survivors painted a picture of "there was nothing we could do" by defaming Custer. Also remember that Custer's entire military hierarchy were culpable as well.

[stumblingbear]

Sept 20, 2013 19:19:57 GMT -5 stumblingbear said:

Sept 14, 2013 18:44:11 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

The point I am endeavoring to make is why wait at all? A tenet of the nineteenth century Calvary was to always "Respond to the Sound of firing."

Hare stated at Reno's Inquiry the following, "It was fully three quarters of an hour from the time benteen joined before the command moved down in Custer's direction."
(Graham's condensed Reno Court of Inquiry p.96)

"As for Hare, he confused the chronology of the events on Reno Hill by ignoring Reno's half hour, as he told Walter Camp, about ten minutes after Benteen came up, Reno sent him to the packs."
Vanishing Victory p.123

There is a psychological truism that has been and always will remain in the psyche of Man, once a mind is made up it tends to abhor facts to the contrary. Col. Graham arranged all of the witness testimony in such a manner as to make the assimilation of the information easy for the average reader. Yet, he died believing that Reno, Benteen, and Wallace told the truth!
To Be Continued:

It is just so heard to swallow the idea that Benteen and Reno waited over an hour while Custer and his men were being killed! It's just to hard to believe. I'm thinking that any attempt to move toward Custer by Reno and Benteen may have allowed Custer to escape with,at least, some of his men. It must have taken some time before the Indians were able to completely surround Last Stand Hill.

In the meantime, a small corridor of escape could have been used to save some of the men. An hour's wait before doing anything makes no sense!

II see your point. I still can not believe what Reno and Benteen did. Unbelievable!

[tbw]

Sept 20, 2013 19:19:57 GMT -5 stumblingbear said:

Sept 14, 2013 18:44:11 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

The point I am endeavoring to make is why wait at all? A tenet of the nineteenth century Calvary was to always "Respond to the Sound of firing."

Hare stated at Reno's Inquiry the following, "It was fully three quarters of an hour from the time benteen joined before the command moved down in Custer's direction."
(Graham's condensed Reno Court of Inquiry p.96)

"As for Hare, he confused the chronology of the events on Reno Hill by ignoring Reno's half hour, as he told Walter Camp, about ten minutes after Benteen came up, Reno sent him to the packs."
Vanishing Victory p.123

There is a psychological truism that has been and always will remain in the psyche of Man, once a mind is made up it tends to abhor facts to the contrary. Col. Graham arranged all of the witness testimony in such a manner as to make the assimilation of the information easy for the average reader. Yet, he died believing that Reno, Benteen, and Wallace told the truth!
To Be Continued:

It is just so heard to swallow the idea that Benteen and Reno waited over an hour while Custer and his men were being killed! It's just to hard to believe. I'm thinking that any attempt to move toward Custer by Reno and Benteen may have allowed Custer to escape with,at least, some of his men. It must have taken some time before the Indians were able to completely surround Last Stand Hill.

In the meantime, a small corridor of escape could have been used to save some of the men. An hour's wait before doing anything makes no sense!

SB,
That hour(s) business before they set out to find Custer is a myth pepetuated by Benteen and Reno's testimony at the COI and believed by most doofuses who don't read and comprehend beyond Benteen and Reno. In fact after they retreated, it didn't take over a half an hour after Reno had arrived on the hill when they set out. Lt. Hare whose tesimony is repetitively and constantly overlooked stated that it took him only 20 minutes (round trip) to go back report what they needed (the ammo packs - imagine that - Ammo packs, not the whole kitten kaboodle as its thought that's what Custer wanted). It took him about 10 minutes to go there and about 10 minutes to return, and if you read what the packers stated about that, you'd know they were right on Hare's heels as that's what they testified to. Is there confirmation of this timing? See for yourself...



Lt. Davern:


Q. What did you see in the direction from which the fire was comng at the
time? (after he arrived at Reno's position on the bluffs).
A. I saw what I supposed to be Indians circling around in the bottom on the
opposite side of the creek from where we had our fight, away down in the
bottom.
Q. Could you tell from where you were on which side of the creek they were?
A. I might be deceived because there were so many bends in the creek.
Q. About how many Indians did you see?
A. There were a good many there.
Q. Were they raising much dust?
A. Yes sir, I called the attention of Capt. Weir to it at the time,
Q. What did you say to him and what did he say to you?
A. I said to Captain Weir "That must be General Custer fighting down
in the bottom." He asked me where and I showed him. He said "Yes,
I believe it is".

Q. Describe that dust and about how many Indians you saw fighting General
Custer?
A. I remarked to Capt. Weir that General Custer must be fighting the Indians-
they were circling around in the bottom. He said 'Why do you think so,'
I said "I hear the firing and see the dust; and see, the Indians have all
left us."
Q. You say that might be half a mile from the skirmish line; might it not
be more?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You did not mean you were sure it was not over half a mile?
A. I don't mean that.
Q. When you got from the timber to the ford there were a good many men
there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You went from the timber across there as fast as you could?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How long did you stop when your horse fell?
A. No longer than to recover myself, probably a couple of minutes, no
longer.
Q. Then how fast did you go?
A. As fast as my horse could run.
Q. Where did you overtake the command?
A. At the river.
Q. Did you stop or cross over?
A. I crossed over right away.
Q. Why did you stop on the hill?
A. To catch an Indian pony.
Q. How long did it take you to catch him?
A. Not long; then I stopped with Lieut. wallace to fire at some Indians
that were killing Dr. DeWolf.
Q. How many shots did you fire.
A. 3 or 4.
Q. How long did it take you to fire those shots and catch the pony?
A. Ten or fifteen ninutes.
Q. Are you sure it was not over 20 minutes?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. I went on to the top of the hill.

Q. Could you see the pack train when you came on the hill?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How far off was it?
A. 50 or 100 yards. I went to speak to a sergeant of my company in charge
of a part of the pack train.
Q. How long after Major Reno reached the hill did you reach there?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you see Lieut. Hare sent to the pack train to hurry it up?
A. No sir.
Q. Do you know that he went in that direction?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you see him coming back from that direction?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you say the pack train reached there 15 minutes after Major Reno
reached there?
A. No sir.
Q. How much longer were you in getting to the top of the hill than major
Reno?
A. I don't know. I was delayed on the side of the hill catching an Indian
pony.
Q. How long were you engaged at that?
A. Maybe I was 20 minutes.
Q. How long were you coming from the timber to the river.
A. I came as fast as mv horse would bring me.
Q. Was it a half an hour or twenty minutes?

A. I dont know,
Q. Was Captain Benteen there when you came up?
A. Capt. heir was there. I don't recollect Capt. Benteen.
Q. The pack train was how far away?
A. The advance was on the hill when I got there. (The advance being the ammo packs)
Q. From the timber to the river, how long did it take you, 5 or 10 minutes?
A. It was more than that; my horse fell with me there.
Q. Was it 15 minutes?
A. I don't know how long it was.
Q. Can you be accurate in the time you were getting to the top of the hill
and reaching the pack train?
A. I don't pretend to be accurate.
Q. Did Major Reno send to Capt. Weir to come to him?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Did you not say that the column halted and Major Reno sent for Capt.
Weir?
A. I don't think I did.
Q. If you said so was it a fact?
A. I am not aware I said so.

Q. W Where do you fix the spot on the map where the Indians were circling
around, if you can fix it at all?
A. Somewhat further up than where the skirmish line is, and on the left,
back in the valley.
Q. I speak of the time when you spoke to Capt. Weir about seeing Indians
in motion. Where were they when you saw them?
A. I can't point it out on the map.
Q. Was it far from the place where Major Reno had his skirmish line in the
timber?
A. It seemed to be about on a line with that skirmish line.
Q. In which direction?
A. On the right, in the direction of the skirmish line.
W. Was it far from that line or not?
A. It would not be very far. I don't know how much ground the timber
covered from the hill - it was not a great distance.
Q. Was it half a mile?
A. I think about a mile.
Q. The place you saw the Indians circling around was about half a mile
from the skirmish line?
A. About that from where it was on the left.
Q. How far did Captain weir go down with his men?
A. To the first rise out to the right.


There were a few tidbits of information in there that when really investigated, leads one to a better understanding of what happened, when and where. And it didn't and still doesn't conform to the same old story, 2nd verse. What is for sure is this:

Beginning of the Retreat:
Q. How far was the command away from you at that time, or could you see?
A. I saw part of the command running towards the river.
Q, About how far were they away when you got to the edge of the bank?
A. Some were about 10 yards away and some were down a good ways.
Q. Where did most of the command seem to be?
A. At the river, crossing it.
Q. And men were still coming out of the woods?
A. Yes sir.

Killing Dr. DeWolfe:
Q. What officer did you see as you were going up,the time you stopped?
A. I saw lieut. Wallace shoot across at some Indians who were killing a man
three or four ridges from there. That hill was divided into ridges or
water cuts,
Q. On which bank of the river was that?
A. On the right bank that I saw Lieut. Wallace and the Indians both.
Q. The Indians were killing a man?
A. Yes sir; I found out afterwards it was Dr. DeWolfe.

He went as fast as he could when he left from the timber for the ford. And his horse threw him which he said consumed only a "couple of minutes" to recover and move on again. He said he caught up with the command at the river. And he didn't stop but went directly across "right away". He then stopped after crossing to catch an Indian pony, when asked how long that took he replied, "not long". He then reported that he stopped with Wallace to "fire at some Indians that were killing Dr. DeWolfe. They asked how long it took to catch the pony and fire those "3 to 4 shots" and he replied, 10 or 15 minutes and then went on to the top of the hill. They asked him if he was sure it didn't take over 20 minutes to do that and he replied "Yes sir".

Then this:
Q. Was Captain Benteen there when you came up?
A. Capt. Weir was there. I don't recollect Capt. Benteen.
Q. The pack train was how far away?
A. The advance was on the hill when I got there.

Q. Could you see the pack train when you came on the hill?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How far off was it?
A. 50 or 100 yards. I went to speak to a sergeant of my company in charge
of a part of the pack train.


The longest part of his journey is calculated as 10 to 15 minutes and not over 20 minutes, and, a "couple of minutes" to recover from his horse falling. This translates as about 12 to 17 minutes + the time it took the others to go that same distance, this being 7 to 8 minutes as recorded by Lt. Varnum. So his estimated time in transit from when he left the timber to when he should have arrived on the bluffs would have been in the neighborhood of about 19 to 25 minutes. What this means is that when Reno arrived on the hill and before going to visit his bosom buddy in the valley and collect his personal items he had by that time sent off Lt. Hare for those ammo packs. How could that be? He didn't do that until after Benteen joined him, or did he? Wallace said that when he arrived there atop the bluffs that Benteen and his men were about 200 yards away, although admittedly he didn't stop to catch a pony, he did stop to fire those shots at the Indians who were trying to kill DeWolfe. All of this evidence points to an early leave time for Lt. Hare to fetch those ammo packs. And Wallace did say that Reno did ride out to meet Benteen, which meeting would have taken place some football fields length away from where he left from, so when they met up was within mere seconds less a minute of Reno's arrival on the hill.

All of this testimony and more verify exactly what Lt. Hare reported, that he left within minutes of Reno's arrival on the hill for those Ammo packs, taking about 20 minutes round trip; and then when Lt. Davern had arrived there after his pony experience, the ammo packs were there and the pack train about 200 yards away. Keep in mind this below, because Reno was quite a distance in advance of Davern, when Davern left the timber. Also, Reno's horse, as far as we know didn't fall, and, he didn't stop to fire at the Indians or try to catch a pony. Reno's total time in going from the timber would have been about 7 to 8 minutes, at least 3 to 4 minutes ahead of Davern, while Davern's time comprised a total anywhere from 19 to 25 minutes, leaving that timber 3 to 4 minutes after Reno. This 'lag' time then must be added to Daverns to fully understand what Davern said he witnessed, and when. This being some 22 minutes to 28 minutes after he began his retreat. Reno did have the jump on him, but the timing wouldn't have been much more or less than figured, and it does confirm Lt. Hare's 20 minute round trip estimate of how long it took him to do his ammo pack journey. And for the advance packs and pack train to be exactly where he said they were when he arrived on the hill.

Q. How far was the command away from you at that time, or could you see?
A. I saw part of the command running towards the river.
Q, About how far were they away when you got to the edge of the bank?
A. Some were about 10 yards away and some were down a good ways.
Q. Where did most of the command seem to be?
A. At the river, crossing it.
Q. And men were still coming out of the woods?
A. Yes sir. (That's because he was one of them! And had witnessed it first hand).

Next the relevant parts of Davern's testimony that establish his timeline:

He said before he had arrived at the river his horse had fallen, and in request for time information about that fall and the recover time it took him, his reply was "a couple of minutes, no longer". So a couple of minutes (say 2 - 3) must be added to the total time it took others to go directly to the top, this time then is 9 to 11 minutes. He then was asked how long it took him to fire the shots at the Indians killing DeWolf and catch the pony, he stated it took about 10 to 15 minutes. This also is added to Davern's total time for a grand total so far of 19 to 26 minutes. What he did then was "continue on to the top of the hill. This time being estimated at about total time from the river to the bluff it normally took others to traverse that distance, this being about 3 to 4 minutes.Which is also added to Daverns grand total time, that being anywhere from 22 minutes to 30 minutes from the time after he left the timber.


How does all these times mesh?

Lets say Reno, as in the man Reno, who was reported to have been at the head of that column, took a total time of 7 to 8 minutes to have arrived on the bluffs after departing the timber.

Lets say that departure time was:
1:00 pm

1:00 pm Reno departs from the timber on the run to the bluffs.
1:03 pm Reno arrives at the river and crosses.
1:03 pm Davern leaves the timber on the run for the bluffs.
1:05 pm Davern's horse falls and throws him.
1:07 pm Davern recovers to horse and high tails it to the ford arrives there at...
1:08 pm Davern arrives at the ford and crosses.
1:08 pm Reno arrives on top of the bluffs.
1:10 pm Shots heard downstream? 3.5 miles downstream from Weir Peak.
1:10 pm Davern and Wallace stop to fire on Indians killing DeWolfe. Davern stops to catch horse while
1:12 pm Wallace arrives atop the bluffs. Benteen is 200 yards away and Reno is going to meet him.
1:13 pm Hare leaves for Packs.
1:15 pm Shots heard downstream? 4.5 mile downstream from Weir Peak.
1:19 Davern catches the horse and continues on to the top of the bluffs and...
1:23 Hare returns with 'advance packs" - ammo, main packs 200 yards away. Seconds later...
1:23 Davern arrives on the bluffs and within minutes tells Weir about seeing and hearing Custer in the bottom. Whereupon Weir replies, "yes I believe it is" Custer in the bottom. More on that at a later time.

Of course this timing could be tweaked by a minute here or there and not one minute more. But what it does show is what they all testified to within a reliability factor of 99%.

So while, primarily Benteen testified that the pack train was 7 miles behind him and hours away, what is shown here, is that two of them, Hare and Davern, did know where that pack train was and testified to where it was and in Davern's case exactly where it was when he arrived atop the bluffs. Both testimonies dovetail perfectly as to time and place, this in spite of Benteen's musings.

Its been said that Reno went down to collect the belongings of Hodgeson, and while that might have been, it didn't take over 20 minutes time - round trip from start to finish, this would have occurred between the time Hare left for the Packs (1:13 pm) and about the 1:33 mark in the timing above. It was right after this that they left downstream to find Custer. This being no more than 33 minutes after Reno left the timber & 25 minutes after his arrival on the bluffs. So no SB it didn't take an hours time, in fact considerably less.

Keep in mind here what was said about that firing heard downstream. Girard said it was from 10 to 15 minutes after Reno had retreated from the timber. Others also confirm this time as a 'short time' after their arrival on the bluffs, this being anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes. And its important to keep the least and greatest time factors in consideration as to when that firing had occurred, that being anywhere from 12/13 minutes up to 20 minutes after Reno left the timber. WITH THIS also remember how long the Indians said it took them to finish off Custer. Still believe they could have done anything? Take a good look at that timing again.

[joewiggs]

You have done a very credible time-line and I also commend you on your diligence in comprising this work!

[tbw]

While there are quite a few people who don't like what the RCOI has to offer, I think we must keep in mind that there were those there that did want to see justice done. Surely not all of them were puppets on a string. That reeks of a major conspiracy. Something that couldn't have been covered up and kept that way for this long. I'm not saying there were those who behind closed doors did enlist the support of others and recieved it, that was well recorded and known about. But when you take the word of Varnum, Hare, Herendeen, Davern, Churchill, Girard and DeRudio and compile it the way that they said that Reno's battle unfolded and they all essentially said the same thing as far as timing was concerned, then that's something that can't be ignored.

Girard said that they were on that SL no more than 20 minutes, 10 outside the timber, 10 inside the timber. And essentially every other man said the same thing. Herendeen stated that he was with Girard and followers for about 6-8 minutes before he went into the timber to tie his horse. And it took him about 5 minute to do that and come back up the same trail he's went down on when he met Indians infilrating that side. He stated he further remained there firing at those Indians for about another 6 to 7 minutes. When somtime during or at the end of the last minutes, he's not clear about that, he had heard the firing on the firing line stop, and had gone into the timber to find out why. Timing here.... 17 minutes at the earliest, 20 minutes at the latest. And this timing is repetitive. Hell even Reno stated the "hot firing" on that SL lasted about 20 minutes.

When one follows that up with the retreat, as I produced for SB in the last post, it is really a no brainer, those guys didn't lie about that timeing. Anything written after the RCOI is hogwash when it comes to that timing. The more time you give Custer to get downstream, which those who were with him stated that gait was not any less than a gallop, and one has to then give Reno more time that what those who were with Reno said it took for his valley actions and retreat. Yet there are those who still try to muddy the waters by adding soft dirt to an already non pristine stream for those to consume downstream of it.

I've spent way to much time knowing what was true at the RCOI and what wasn't. And it should be very obvious to all by now just what that is. But, lying about time? That back in 1876 just wouldn't have computed or made any sense. To what purpose would that have helped anyone? Read Benteen again and tell me or anyone here that what he said made any sense to those he was saying it to. And then add to that what he himself said about that, to the effect that, they couldn't understand. Brilliant mind or nitwit?

[whitebull]

I appreciate what you're saying and I believe you are right. We can't ignore the whole thing because of a few who might have done wrong. My main beef is with the board who seemed to have slept during the whole testimony.

I don't know enough about the whole thing to be super critical but, you have admit that something just ain't right! ::)s