cinnamon
Sergeant
our love will last forever
Posts: 132
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Post by cinnamon on Feb 20, 2011 4:46:36 GMT -5
I don't believe Martin had forked tongue. And Martin stated the last mule arrived one hour later. This doesn't means you are wrong or indians does. It simply means that the packs arrived not all togheter. They could have supported Custer as ordered anyway. And it is what I would have done myself if I had been Benteen. Call me silly, call me naive, but this was in my opinion the only damn right thing to do.
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Post by joewiggs on Feb 20, 2011 12:08:56 GMT -5
I completely agree with you Cinnimon regarding Martini. He was a completely honorable and honest man. One of his most proudest accomplishes was that his two sons joined the military. Miscommunication and faulty memories brought about incorrect information concerning the battle but no malicious intent on behalf of Martini was the culprit.
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cinnamon
Sergeant
our love will last forever
Posts: 132
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Post by cinnamon on Feb 20, 2011 12:16:25 GMT -5
Martini never changed advice on this subject and always stated the same. He was an eyewitness of it. Also he was not the only one saying the last mule arrived one hour later. However, as said before, this doesn't proove indians wrong, this just says that packs arrived not all along.
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Post by joewiggs on Feb 20, 2011 19:53:32 GMT -5
Cinnamon, I concur with your opinion with Sgt. Martini. he was truly an honorable man. May god bless him and his family forever!
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Post by tbw on Feb 21, 2011 0:12:41 GMT -5
Oops.... posted that one in the wrong place.... Sorry, must be the current drain brammage inflicted by multiple arrows to the head.
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Post by joewiggs on Apr 13, 2011 7:21:56 GMT -5
a very short explanation of a theory I've been harboring for some time: you are correct! I believe that there were various groups of warriors north of Reno's enclave who were able to see from certain heights a good distance. Sharpshooter's ridge and the bluffs for example. from this height they were able to see the mules and pack train still quite a distance away.
As the warriors who made this observation were later involved in the attack against Custer (an hour before the train actually arrive at the enclave) an assumption was made that they must have been mistaken a false assumption.
You said it best when you pointed out that the Indians certainly could distinguish a pack when they saw it.
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Post by franco777 on May 24, 2011 11:48:25 GMT -5
I just got done reading Lakota Noon (a very good book by the way!) and was surprised at just how many indians said that they saw the pack train arrive about the time Reno gained the high ground. I thought to myself, ' how can so many indians be wrong'?
I agree that this may be the most explosive and overlooked issue of the whole battle. My main question is, if this is true, how could this critical fact been hidden by so many for so long? I know that by the time the court of inquiry was held three years later they certainly would have been able to get their 'stories strait' but how could this fact been covered up from day 1 after the battle? This is an absolutley critical issue.
It is possible that Custer even saw them in the distance and was just waiting for them (the pack train) and Benteen to arrive as ordered. I would add however, that if I were Custer and I had seen the pack train on the bluffs when Reno retreated to them, I would have most likely not allowed so many Indians to get between my troops and the rest of the command. Rather than go farther away, I would have joined the commands back together at that point.
A fascinating post. Keep up the comments on this.
(FRANCO777)
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Post by tbw on May 24, 2011 12:28:56 GMT -5
I just got done reading Lakota Noon (a very good book by the way!) and was surprised at just how many indians said that they saw the pack train arrive about the time Reno gained the high ground. I thought to myself, ' how can so many indians be wrong'? I agree that this may be the most explosive and overlooked issue of the whole battle. My main question is, if this is true, how could this critical fact been hidden by so many for so long? I know that by the time the court of inquiry was held three years later they certainly would have been able to get their 'stories strait' but how could this fact been covered up from day 1 after the battle? This is an absolutley critical issue. It is possible that Custer even saw them in the distance and was just waiting for them (the pack train) and Benteen to arrive as ordered. I would add however, that if I were Custer and I had seen the pack train on the bluffs when Reno retreated to them, I would have most likely not allowed so many Indians to get between my troops and the rest of the command. Rather than go farther away, I would have joined the commands back together at that point. A fascinating post. Keep up the comments on this. (FRANCO777) First of all let me extend a warm welcome to you, and thank you for your comments. I think many of the Indian statements are ignored or retooled into something that wasn't. And over the years of investigating this, that sort of thing becomes ingrained as truth. Time and time again I've always heard the thought that it was Benteen and his men they saw. Yet there's a significant difference between a column of mounted troopers and a group of pack animals laden with boxes of ammo, satchels and bags of grain etc. with a group of soldiers and civilians herding them. The Indians knew what they were seeing, and had they known its whereabouts before hand, they still would have known what it was and what those pack animals were toting. I also think there is a disconnect because of the time between the actual fighting and when the COI was convened. That disconnect meant for many of those who testified to quite simply 'follow the leader' when it came to their own statements because they couldn't remember, and if so and so did, then it must be right. Martini was mistaken about a lot of things and this is one time where he was. In one timing episode for his trip back to Benteen he stated he went 5 miles, yet in another timing episode one can place a definite time to his actions and comfortably say, by what he said, that it only took him about 25 minutes to get back to Benteen. While his speed would indicate that he would have had to have rode at a consistent rate over 10 mph to accomplish that task, others statements including his own make reference to the fact that he trotted most of the way. That 10+ mph speed would have had to have been more of a lope or gallop than a trot. So even this evidence seems suspect. I don't think by what Martini said that he could determine what the difference was between 1 hour or 1 mile or for that matter what the difference was between 1 1/2 mile and 1 1/2 hour as he mixed that up more than once as well at the COI. I would suggest that anyone reading Martini take his exact words with a grain of salt. It wasn't an hour or even an hour and a half later when the packs arrived. But he was correct about one thing, they were 1 to 1 1/2 miles back, but how long it took them to traverse that distance wasn't an hour or an hour and a half thats for sure. Because at the time of his meeting with Benteen he stated that he only went mere yards back to the lead packs to report to them. His hours turned into miles and his miles turned into hours tell the truth, and you can bet money on it.
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Post by franco777 on May 27, 2011 12:18:10 GMT -5
I just read the extremely thorough and highly recommended book "Custer’s Last Campaign" by John S. Gray. After reading this book, in which Mr. Gray does an exhaustive timeline study of everyone’s movements that day, I must now say that I do not believe that there is any way the pack train arrived at the point Reno retreated to on the bluffs until about 45 – 50 minutes after Reno had arrived (retreated in panic I should say) to that point. Which is what I had always assumed until I read a few of the indian accounts. In a previous post I questioned this, as so many Indians had stated they saw the pack train arriving on the bluffs at just about the time same time Reno . --- I believe that, as so many Indians were late in getting into the fight, that by the time they got to Reno Hill, Reno had already been there for 45 minutes and the pack train was arriving. All of the Indians that state they saw the pack train arriving did, in fact, see it. I just think they are mistaken at how soon after Reno arrived there, the pack train showed up. --- Probably Benteen had already joined Reno on the bluffs but the Indians weren’t on top of the bluffs soon enough to see that juncture. They just thought that the Pack Train was the first “troops” to show up after Reno’s retreat.
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Post by joewiggs on May 27, 2011 19:43:52 GMT -5
Hi, glad you are here and I'm enjoying your post very much. I would add just one point to your well written thread. all of the Indians involved in the battle were not posted directly at Reno's military "front."
A number of warriors were out and about in the various other precincts in the general areas of the battlefield, to include the specific area of Reno Hill. Remember Dr. Lord and another were killed as they ascended the hill by warriors already there prior to the arrival of any military personnel.
These warriors may have espied the approaching pack train several miles aways from the heights of the elevation of Reno Hill before they absconded.
Once again, a very warm welcome to the forum.
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Post by tbw on May 27, 2011 20:18:23 GMT -5
I just read the extremely thorough and highly recommended book "Custer’s Last Campaign" by John S. Gray. After reading this book, in which Mr. Gray does an exhaustive timeline study of everyone’s movements that day, I must now say that I do not believe that there is any way the pack train arrived at the point Reno retreated to on the bluffs until about 45 – 50 minutes after Reno had arrived (retreated in panic I should say) to that point. Which is what I had always assumed until I read a few of the indian accounts. In a previous post I questioned this, as so many Indians had stated they saw the pack train arriving on the bluffs at just about the time same time Reno . --- I believe that, as so many Indians were late in getting into the fight, that by the time they got to Reno Hill, Reno had already been there for 45 minutes and the pack train was arriving. All of the Indians that state they saw the pack train arriving did, in fact, see it. I just think they are mistaken at how soon after Reno arrived there, the pack train showed up. --- Probably Benteen had already joined Reno on the bluffs but the Indians weren’t on top of the bluffs soon enough to see that juncture. They just thought that the Pack Train was the first “troops” to show up after Reno’s retreat. John Gray's work;s was a breakthrough in the way everyone since has viewed the battle. And I don't think to many today have improved on it much at all. Several have tried and have done good works of their own, one to be published soon. But I feel no matter how hard anyone today tries, it will be very difficult to improve on his original work. The questions today revolve around his times/timing of events and how fast horses can actually move. I once knew where he got his timing information from as he did state it in The Last Campaign but only once so it isn't easy to spot it, but it was from an Army record contemporary with the time. The 1860 Ordinance Manual does state a slightly different time for Cavalry march times and they go on to list a "charge" rate of speed as being from 10 to 13 mph, something Gray didn't account for in his work. Some people today think that Custer went down Reno Creek much faster than Gray stated, perhaps as much as 10 mph, and while that is possible, I personally think the rate of speed down Reno Creek was variable in nature and ranged anywhere from 4 mph to 10 mph at any given moment in time according to events as they happened. What bothers me the most is Gray's timing after Custer leaves Reno. Most people tend to follow Gray's timing here as there is little else to go on and while Gray relied on sighting of Custer and his men by Reno's men on the valley floor, such sightings, I think skew these timings to what people want to believe and not what actually happened because of a few misplaced sightings that just could not have happened they way they stated them. I think Gray's timing here is to slow and tends to give a false impression of what really happened from then on. I could go on here, but for now this should suffice. While Gray didn't go into the end of the battle (Custer's) very much he did make a few wild guesses based upon what he thought happened, for instance that feint at ford "B". And this I think was his biggest downfall. Had he ended the book without saying that, I think his book today would be much more revered than what it is, and quite possibly be the best source anywhere on what happened. But because he obviously was thinking this all the way through his work, one does have to wonder just how much he had to change to get it to work out that way.
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Post by whitebull on Jun 17, 2011 18:46:14 GMT -5
You got me thinking about a couple of things like how did anyone know what Custer was doing at Ford B other than get across. why was Gray so sure that it was a "feint" instead of a charge that was turned around by Indian fire? Another thing your post has brought out, how can you judge how fast a horse travels when the land changes every 100 feet or so. From level, to up hill, to down hill. I appreciate your efforts to keep thinking on a even keel! it gives me a chance to figure things out!
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cinnamon
Sergeant
our love will last forever
Posts: 132
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Post by cinnamon on Jan 14, 2012 12:02:05 GMT -5
we must consider also how long lasted Martini's trip to Benteen, as this was the same way Custer did previously.
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Post by whitebull on Jan 15, 2012 12:38:40 GMT -5
Good Point! I'm not sure how long it was but it was not a long time. Benteen and company covered the distance pretty quickly and soon saw Reno on the hill. When they arrived at Reno's location they holed up instead of going on to Custer. That decision pretty much was Custer's death sentence.
Of course, Benteen later said it was impossible to get to Custer but you know they could have tried at least. Maybe a part of the command could have been saved. Because they didn't even try we will never know.
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Post by bulldawg on Jun 23, 2012 9:33:02 GMT -5
Hi My name is Ernest Locklear Iam trying to get information about the pack train.
Im trying to find any information on Noah Alpsaugh, he was my wifes Great-Great grandfather WAS CIVILAN WAGON DRIVER. For a Mr. Foote that I'am Guessing was a contractor of some sorts in 1876.I haven been told there is a newspaper artical from Ohio about Noah being killed with Custer. I have not found anything yet.
NOAH ALSPAUGH: AS A TEAMTSTER FOR A MR FOOTE, NOAH WAS ENGAGED IN HAULING PROVISIONS ACROSS THE PLAINS TO THE BLACK HILLS IN DAKOTA. IN 1876 HE WAS KILLED IN THE CUSTER MASSACRE, ALONG WITH THE SOLDIERS.
NEED HELP FINDING ANY INFO ABOUT THE MEN WITH THE PACK TRAIN NOAH MAY HAVE BEEN KILLED AT HILLTOP I AM HOPING THAT HE MIGHT BE MENTIONED IN A BOOK I CAINT FIND ANY INFO ON THE MR. FOOTE THAT HAD A CONTRACT WITH THE ARMY WAS HOPING TO MABE LOCATE A DOCUMENT ABOUT THIS OR A ROSTER LIST OF THE CIVILIANS ON THE PACK TRAIN. HOPEING MAYBE YOU COULD HELP ME SPREAD THE WORD. THANK YOU SO MUCH . EMAIL: THEBIGBULLDAWG@AOL.COM
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