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Post by Cutter on May 8, 2010 20:11:46 GMT -5
With the astute membership here, I am doing homework.
Am curious. am reading texts of DAVID HUMPHREYS MILLER . Finding it fascinating .
"Because of the hostility shown towards White Bull by his white neighbors, I was unwilling to publish these facts while the Chief and his immediate connections were still alive. If those who knew him felt so strongly, I feared that if this story were published in my biography of the Chief (Warpath, The True Story of the Fighting Sioux, 1934) some hothead might harm the old man. Now it can be told." caught my eye.
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Post by joewiggs on May 9, 2010 18:00:42 GMT -5
Cutter, I'm not certain but, i believe that Miller was convinced that White Bull engaged in a hand to hand tryst with Custer during the battle. I can not recall the significant details about this incident but apparently described fighting a rather tall, thin but muscular soldier who fought rather gamely against White Bull. In fact, White Bull began to shout out for help during the struggle. Several Indians heard his scream and came to his aid. the problem was that they rained as many blows upon the back and head of white Bull as they did the soldier.
Eventually, White Bull overcame his adversary with the help of his friends. Miller, based upon the description of the soldier, was convinced it was Custer. At 5'10-11" Custer was tall for that era.
He was also well proportioned and musculae..
To establish White Bull as the killer of Custer could have resulted in fatal repercussions.
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Post by Cutter on May 9, 2010 18:30:03 GMT -5
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Post by tbw on May 9, 2010 21:22:34 GMT -5
Thanks for the links Cutter. Great information!
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Post by Cutter on May 27, 2010 8:35:23 GMT -5
Which timeline is more accepted, Michno’s timeline in “Lakota Noon”, or John S. Gray's tables in "Custer's Last Campaign"? I've seen Grey's, but can't find Michno’s on the web. Do they differ all that much? I haven't read either book, but plan to. BTW, google books has a downloadable pdf of General Nelson A. Miles Memoirs "Serving the Republic". Another good site is www.pdfgeni.com/All kinds of stuff, searchable ie, cavalry tactics, little big horn, etc. |
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Post by tbw on May 27, 2010 14:18:03 GMT -5
Gray used most of his timelines, if not all of them, off of what the soldiers said. He based very little off of what the Indians themselves said of the battle. Gray had many preconceived notions about the battle and tried to fit his timeline into those preconceptions. This is where I think he made his greatest error. He also chose to use Wallace's time when going down Reno Creek. This time, though "official time," wasn't made official until nearly 6 months after the battle when Wallace composed it. In choosing this timing, Gray ignored Reno, Benteen, Girard, DeRudio and others who stated a crossing of the divide at or around 8 to 8:30 on the morning of the 25th. Wallace placed that crossing of the divide at around noon! That's nearly 4 hours later than the rest reported in official reports and statements.
Michno, well, he based his off of what the Indians said, and I think he got alot wrong. There is hardly anything that can be gleaned from timing out what the Indians said of the battle, which is what he tried to do. The Custer phase of the battle would have to be understood, without bias to know the 'exact timing'. To say that Michno knew this, exactly, and got it right in that book, well, lets just say, its an interesting read, and leave it at that.
As for comparisons between the two, I guess where one leaves off (Gray), the other tries to pick up (Michno), so the comparisons in general aren't there, other than the fact that, each in their own way are great works of fiction, based upon biased perceptions.
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Post by joewiggs on May 27, 2010 19:17:04 GMT -5
I agree with Dennis, Michno gives a fascinating read with a heavy emphasis on Indian testimony. It was a much easier read, for me, than Gray.
He also wrote a book wherein he alleges that the "missing" troopers of Deep Ravine where actually buried in Cemetery ravine. This, despite the graphic description of the burials within, virtuallywalls to high to escape. Doesn't sound like a match for Cemetery ravine to me.
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Post by tbw on May 28, 2010 11:59:01 GMT -5
Michno wrote an article a while back in the Wild West magazine. I wrote a rebuttal to it but never sent it in. I think I still have it somewhere around here. And would entertain the thought of putting it somewhere on the boards provided it wouldn't infringe on copyright laws, which it probably would. For those of you who request it I would be more than happy to send it to you via email. He made and still makes alot of false assumptions. But this isn't unusual for any of us to do, myself included. But if I remember correctly his article had something to do with 10 reasons why there was or wasn't (not sure which he argued) a last stand. Its been a while, and i've forgotten most of it. Probably a good thing.
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Post by joewiggs on May 28, 2010 12:06:51 GMT -5
I would appreciate, very much, your rebuttals being sent. I did not realize that he denies that a last Stand occurred. Like I said earlier, always an interesting read but, were his facts come from heaven knows.  |
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Post by melani on May 28, 2010 21:13:18 GMT -5
I've got that magazine somewhere around the house, but don't remember the details of the article. I'm about to clean up--maybe I'll find it!
For what it's worth, I loved Michno and pretty much inhaled the book, but never manged to finish Gray. I value Michno more for his picture of how the battle flowed than for absolute timing.
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Post by joewiggs on May 29, 2010 9:51:47 GMT -5
Touche Melani, touche!
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