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Post by tbw on Oct 6, 2011 7:59:48 GMT -5
It's simple really. Or. maybe not.
What was Major Reno's orders when Custer sent him across the river?
And
What was Capt. Benteen's orders when Custer sent him away on his mission(s)?
A good or perhaps, not so good, source for the answers, in triplicate might be the RCOI.
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Post by joewiggs on Oct 9, 2011 11:46:23 GMT -5
It's simple really. Or. maybe not. What was Major Reno's orders when Custer sent him across the river? And What was Capt. Benteen's orders when Custer sent him away on his mission(s)? A good or perhaps, not so good, source for the answers, in triplicate might be the RCOI. Two difficult questions that both Reno and Benteen went to strenuous efforts to hide. Regarding Benteen, before the accusations against him were risen he was honest and forthright in a letter written to his wife a few days after the battle. On July 2, 1876, Benteen on board the Far West wrote his wife: "I was ordered with companies D, H, and K, to go to left for the purpose of hunting for the valley (note that he uses the definite article in the letter then resorted to the indefinite article "a" henceforth)of the river,Indian camp, or anything I could find." This makes absolutely reasonable sense as Custer, at this point, did not know the exact location of the village. Two days later Benteen wrote a second letter to his wife: "I was to go over an immense hill to the left, in search of the valley which was suppose to be very near by." Benteen's story later morphed into a conglomeration of horses dung with the realization that his assumption (Custer had captured the village on his own) was dead wrong As for Reno, I have a theory only. No officer in his right man would order three companies to charge a village of at least 1800 warriors (the count Custer believed to be so). Neither would Custer! The "Lone Tipi" was a village before the occupants fled. The cause of their fleeing was the approach of Custer's command. I believe Custer ordered Reno to choose an appropriate pace and bring these fleeing Indians to battle. Why? to prevent them from warning the much larger village in the valley. It is often forgotten that Custer did not know the exact location of the village until after the commands was given to Reno and Benteen. Custer did not achieve this vital information until his observation of the village occurred from Weir's Point or Sharpshooter's ridge, defendant upon the source you utilize! What Benteen and Reno accomplished by their disjointed and extraordinary prevarications were to convince the world that Custer was foolish and irresponsible as a commander at this battle. An untrue accusation still believed to this very day! |
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Post by crazycanuck on Oct 12, 2011 8:41:33 GMT -5
Jiggs you say "No officer in his right mind would order three companies to charge a village of at least 1800 warriors" and you also say "Custer did not know the exact location of the village" but yet poor Reno was sent ahead. I say no officer in his right mind would order soldiers(Reno) to persue Indians and bring them to battle without knowing where the rest of the village was which happened to be in front of his(Custer) nose if only he had took the time to have found out which makes Custer foolish and irresponsible. A true accusation believed by me today.
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Post by joewiggs on Oct 14, 2011 19:09:17 GMT -5
Jiggs you say "No officer in his right mind would order three companies to charge a village of at least 1800 warriors" and you also say "Custer did not know the exact location of the village" but yet poor Reno was sent ahead. I say no officer in his right mind would order soldiers(Reno) to pursue Indians and bring them to battle without knowing where the rest of the village was which happened to be in front of his(Custer) nose if only he had took the time to have found out which makes Custer foolish and irresponsible. A true accusation believed by me today. It is an easy thing to do when we analysis the actions of people who existed in different times and who possessed different social values and declare them to be incompetent when compared to contemporaneous decision making. Unfortunately, such decisions are based upon a false premise and are seldom correct. When one comprehends the false "stigma" attached to the Native American of the 1800's which assumed that aboriginals would not, could not, stand up to hundreds of Troopers, one sees Custer's actions in a different light; a very plausible one. Custer adhered to tactics that were acceptable and anticipated by those who lived in his particular time and space. To ridicule him, or any other American fighter of that time (Davy Crockett, Travis, or Bowie for example) by our current standards serve no purposes other than to soothe the savage souls of those who abhor certain historical personage. General, try a little compassion when crucifying Custer, as you are inclined to do, and surely you will discover that he was not a total idiot;who is?  |
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Post by crazycanuck on Oct 14, 2011 20:30:13 GMT -5
Good stuff Jiggs,I say if the Indians acted in a way they weren't supposed to(stand and fight instead of run) Custer should of adapted his plans(acted like he wasn't suppose to) instead of allowing his troops to be wiped out. If the Indians are smart enough to change then what about Custer ?
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Post by tbw on Oct 15, 2011 7:53:49 GMT -5
This may help. Or not  From Benteen's testimony at the RCOI. Q. Was the order you received from General Custer to send him word if you found anything an indication at the time he gave the order that he did not know the exact location of the hostile village? ( Interesting question don't you think? Especially the way it was positively stated by the questioner the he didn't know the exact location of the village.) A. He did not believe there was a village there, according to my belief. Q. Was or was not the orders evidence to your mind that whichever command found the Indians or the hostile Village, the entire command was as far as practicable to cooperate in engaging or attacking the Indians? A. As a matter of course. Q. When two columns such as yours and General Custer's are in quest of Indians, would it not be the duty of the one which found the Indians to notify the other? A. Certainly. ( Sound like Curly from the 3 stooges here. Soitenly) Q. From the tenor of the order you received , was it or was it not manifest that General Custer expected you would be found on the trail within communicating distance of the pack train? A. It was not evident to me, for it was evident to me that he could not have expected any such thing from the orders I started out with. He could not have possibly known where to have found me according to my belief, within 10 or 15 miles. My going back there was providential or accidental or whatever you may be pleased to term it. Q. From the order sent to you at that time, to be quick and bring the packs, was it not manifest that he expected you would be within communicating distance of the packtrain? A. I suppose he had found what he had sent me to find out as you premise, and wanted me quickly as possible, and I got there as quickly is I could. I could not possibly tell what he may have thought, If it is a guess, I can guess, but how close I will be I don't know, Q. Have you no opinion to express on the matter? A. I have none other than I have told. Q. State whether the successive orders you received from General Custer after leaving his command indicated that he did not expect you to be beyond reasonable communicating distance from him, and that he expected you to control your movements as far as possible? A. If I had gone to the first valley and found nothing, as I would not, as I know now, and had gone on to the second valley, I would have been 25 miles away. I don't know where I would have been. As it was, I was certainly too far to cooperate when he wanted me. Q. Could either yourself or General Custer at that time have known what was behind that line of bluffs without sending someone to ascertain? A. He could have found out by following the trail he was on. AND the real answer to that question, which he had just answered previously.A. I suppose he had found what he had sent me to find out as you premise, and wanted me quickly as possible, and I got there as quickly is I could. I could not possibly tell what he may have thought, If it is a guess, I can guess, but how close I will be I don't know, |
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Post by crazycanuck on Oct 15, 2011 8:53:47 GMT -5
Jiggs, if Custer believed that the Indians are to act like they are suppose to (run away when a cavalry comes) why would he send Reno chasing Indians when he KNOWS the Indians won't fight but run away? Reno ,under Custers orders, in theory, would of scattered the Indians West into no man's land . I know about Custers Indian scouts trying to capture ponies to prevent escape.... that went really well)
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Post by joewiggs on Oct 15, 2011 18:42:10 GMT -5
This may help. Or not From Benteen's testimony at the RCOI. Q. Was the order you received from General Custer to send him word if you found anything an indication at the time he gave the order that he did not know the exact location of the hostile village? ( Interesting question don't you think? Especially the way it was positively stated by the questioner the he didn't know the exact location of the village.) A. He did not believe there was a village there, according to my belief. Q. Was or was not the orders evidence to your mind that whichever command found the Indians or the hostile Village, the entire command was as far as practicable to cooperate in engaging or attacking the Indians? A. As a matter of course. Q. When two columns such as yours and General Custer's are in quest of Indians, would it not be the duty of the one which found the Indians to notify the other? A. Certainly. ( Sound like Curly from the 3 stooges here. Soitenly) Q. From the tenor of the order you received , was it or was it not manifest that General Custer expected you would be found on the trail within communicating distance of the pack train? A. It was not evident to me, for it was evident to me that he could not have expected any such thing from the orders I started out with. He could not have possibly known where to have found me according to my belief, within 10 or 15 miles. My going back there was providential or accidental or whatever you may be pleased to term it. Q. From the order sent to you at that time, to be quick and bring the packs, was it not manifest that he expected you would be within communicating distance of the packtrain? A. I suppose he had found what he had sent me to find out as you premise, and wanted me quickly as possible, and I got there as quickly is I could. I could not possibly tell what he may have thought, If it is a guess, I can guess, but how close I will be I don't know, Q. Have you no opinion to express on the matter? A. I have none other than I have told. Q. State whether the successive orders you received from General Custer after leaving his command indicated that he did not expect you to be beyond reasonable communicating distance from him, and that he expected you to control your movements as far as possible? A. If I had gone to the first valley and found nothing, as I would not, as I know now, and had gone on to the second valley, I would have been 25 miles away. I don't know where I would have been. As it was, I was certainly too far to cooperate when he wanted me. Q. Could either yourself or General Custer at that time have known what was behind that line of bluffs without sending someone to ascertain? A. He could have found out by following the trail he was on. AND the real answer to that question, which he had just answered previously. A. I suppose he had found what he had sent me to find out as you premise, and wanted me quickly as possible, and I got there as quickly is I could. I could not possibly tell what he may have thought, If it is a guess, I can guess, but how close I will be I don't know, |
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Post by tbw on Oct 16, 2011 9:31:40 GMT -5
Good stuff Jiggs,I say if the Indians acted in a way they weren't supposed to(stand and fight instead of run) Custer should of adapted his plans(acted like he wasn't suppose to) instead of allowing his troops to be wiped out. If the Indians are smart enough to change then what about Custer ? I think a few comments here are in order. "Custer should of adapted his plans(acted like he wasn't suppose to) instead of allowing his troops to be wiped out." I think the die had been cast. By this I mean he had already sent off both Reno and Benteen by the time he might have realized his mistake(s). And I think it incumbent upon us to try to understand what he did after finding out all of this in the way of orders and by his own actions. As you premise and Joe has stated in reply to my more lengthier post, Custer didn't know of the Indian village exact whereabouts or size until he himself had mounted an observation point from which to see it. And lets face it, he did, by that time it was to late to do anything different than what he had already set in motion. What remained of those plans if no subsequent change of orders had been sent to his Jr. officers, would of natural course have depended upon their own prudent judgement to do the right thing, which is the impression both Reno and Benteen gave at the court of Inquiry. Trying not to lay blame, at this point, for most of us is a futile effort. But we must try, if we are to understand this. This is where I posted this bit of information in such an attempt. === ==== From Benteen's testimony at the RCOI.
Q. Was the order you received from General Custer to send him word if you found anything an indication at the time he gave the order that he did not know the exact location of the hostile village? (Interesting question don't you think? Especially the way it was positively stated by the questioner the he didn't know the exact location of the village.)
A. He did not believe there was a village there, according to my belief.
Q. Was or was not the orders evidence to your mind that whichever command found the Indians or the hostile Village, the entire command was as far as practicable to cooperate in engaging or attacking the Indians?
A. As a matter of course.
Q. When two columns such as yours and General Custer's are in quest of Indians, would it not be the duty of the one which found the Indians to notify the other?
A. Certainly. ( Sound like Curly from the 3 stooges here. Soitenly)
Q. From the tenor of the order you received , was it or was it not manifest that General Custer expected you would be found on the trail within communicating distance of the pack train?
A. It was not evident to me, for it was evident to me that he could not have expected any such thing from the orders I started out with. He could not have possibly known where to have found me according to my belief, within 10 or 15 miles. My going back there was providential or accidental or whatever you may be pleased to term it.
Q. From the order sent to you at that time, to be quick and bring the packs, was it not manifest that he expected you would be within communicating distance of the packtrain?
A. I suppose he had found what he had sent me to find out as you premise, and wanted me quickly as possible, and I got there as quickly is I could. I could not possibly tell what he may have thought, If it is a guess, I can guess, but how close I will be I don't know,
Q. Have you no opinion to express on the matter?
A. I have none other than I have told.
Q. State whether the successive orders you received from General Custer after leaving his command indicated that he did not expect you to be beyond reasonable communicating distance from him, and that he expected you to control your movements as far as possible?
A. If I had gone to the first valley and found nothing, as I would not, as I know now, and had gone on to the second valley, I would have been 25 miles away. I don't know where I would have been. As it was, I was certainly too far to cooperate when he wanted me.
Q. Could either yourself or General Custer at that time have known what was behind that line of bluffs without sending someone to ascertain?
A. He could have found out by following the trail he was on.
AND the real answer to that question, which he had just answered previously.
A. I suppose he had found what he had sent me to find out as you premise, and wanted me quickly as possible, and I got there as quickly is I could. I could not possibly tell what he may have thought, If it is a guess, I can guess, but how close I will be I don't know.=== ==== I felt it important not to try to comment with bias on either the questions or his answers. Quite simply because I think both the questions and Benteen's answers to them more than make up for our lack of understanding Benteen's orders. But he did in this series of question answer that, much to his own chagrin. Q. Could either yourself or General Custer at that time have known what was behind that line of bluffs without sending someone to ascertain? & Q. From the order sent to you at that time, to be quick and bring the packs, was it not manifest that he expected you would be within communicating distance of the packtrain? His answer to each compliment each other perfectly for our understanding of what his mission WAS and what was expected of him both on that mission and after he failed to perform it. It also tells us that Custer not only quote "expected" him to be within communication distance of the Pack Train - HE KNEW IT. because he had observed their closeness from the heights before descending the bluffs. A. He could have found out by following the trail he was on. (Which we now know he did. And it is further explained by the following answer.) A. I suppose he had found what he had sent me to find out as you premise, and wanted me quickly as possible... And to add, to wit, the reason. The Big Village in the orders sent back to him. I don't think some people know what Benteen was referring to when he told the court that he disobeyed the orders Custer had given him, here it was explained in full. The court asked Benteen this because they knew this. And was why they asked him this... Q. Have you no opinion to express on the matter? His response. A. I have none other than I have told. He did say, "I could not possibly tell what he (Custer) may have thought, If it is a guess, I can guess, but how close I will be I don't know." Personally I think he would have done an excellent job of assessing what Custer's thoughts were at the time While it appears Benteen was the scapegoat most are looking for. Why he did disobey those orders might give us a clue as to his motive and reasoning at the time. This to is dismissed in response to favoritism and bias. |
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He radiated such confidence and aplomb because he knew Reno would take the fall for not contacting Custer's command in time to help.