Post by tbw on Nov 4, 2011 14:00:54 GMT -5
Was gathering proper intelligence before his arrival there a critical error that Custer made?
Guides and Scouts to include native and non native alike:
1) Benteen's mission has always been labeled as a scout mission. And from Benteen's own words at the COI it seems as though his mission, in part, was to give Custer information (intelligence) on what lay behind the imposing ridge line (to include, Reno Hill, Sharpshooter, Weir peaks, Bouyer bluffs) that they couldn't ever see behind. For some people who investigate this, they think he moved left of the trail, but that wasn't ever confirmed by anyone who participated with the exception of Godfrey who made some reference to it years after the battle in one of his publications for public consumption. Godfrey always did carry a big chip on his shoulders, and he was one of few who blamed Reno more than the others for the fiasco. His performance at the COI is not understood within this context other than some kind esprit de corps, and, what good would it do his own commander, Benteen, if he didn't try to shine his boots and in the process not bring Reno down at the same time. As most stated after the fact, they didn't tell all they knew quite simply because they were not asked. Or, better put, were not asked the right questions. This important fact that he mentioned years after the fact being just one of those that still cast doubt on any who read it. Left wasn't then, and still today isn't a direction unless it is referenced to something that gives it direction.
Benteen's own instructions refer to Custer pointing to a quote, "line of bluffs" where he, Benteen was supposed to go. This same "line of bluffs was referenced back to him by asking Benteen at the COI if Custer couldn't have found out what was behind them (stated in the question as "line of bluffs) if he didn't send anyone there. Benteen's answer is priceless, "I suppose he found out what he had sent me to find out..." This admission tells us more about Benteen's mission than any other words. The valley he was supposed to go to (find) was the Little Big horn valley. The Indians he was to, quote, "look up" were the suspected Indians and numbers he would find there. And these he was to report back to Custer. But that wasn't all. He was to further go ahead and quote, "pitch into them". So technically it wasn't purely a recon mission. It was what Patton would later call "recon in force". This tactic Patton used was meant to sent a heavily armed recon unit forward to find the enemy's weakness and exploit it by further punching a hole through the enemy's lines. So the term recon or scout used by some if not all today is a misnomer because they try to forgive Benteen for not carrying out the recon in force part of his mission. Still to this day no one knows for sure exactly where Benteen went, and Godfrey's published report gives small explanation of Benteen's "pitch in" orders, which he couldn't have done the direction he tried to send him.
When it comes to the Crow guides there appears to be some kind of mistrust going on. The Crow guides were familiar with this area, and their knowledge should have been invaluable to Custer. But by appearances and the statements we do have about this, Custer didn't for some reason trust their judgment on these matters. Benteen stated it in so many words. Curley stated that Custer never asked "them" about that country. Odd as it seems, and no more than we have to go on, Custer evidently didn't trust them enough to guide him the right way. The evidence of this is in Martin's orders he sent back to Benteen, stating "big village", as if this was some kind of new revelation of unfounded knowledge up to that point. This is further confirmed by the "come on", "Be quick" instruction attached to that same note. Which by direct reference means what we found, we didn't expect.
So exactly what did or didn't Custer know? Both Reno and Benteen make mention at the COI that Custer had not plans for his attack that day. But there is a weakness in these statements. That weakness was in Custer's move down the right bank. Did Custer know there was another ford downstream, did he assume there was one, or was he trusting his guides on this one? whatever the answer is it negates the possibility that he had no plans. If you believe that Custer trusted his guides on this one, then he had to have asked them this before sending Reno and even Benteen off on their missions.
What did Custer's move down the right bank show? Consistency, recklessness, indecision, caution, inefficient use of his troops from the scouts/guides to his own 7th?
A careful examination of exactly where all those scouting elements were has to be appraised before condemning them or Custer. Varnum and Hare had both been on the left/front - right/front sides respectively of Custer's advance down Reno creek. And from what little we do know, Varnum did report the to court that he had seen alot of Indians but no village about an hour before their arrival at where Reno and Custer separated. This single piece of information should have been invaluable to Custer. But it has to be asked. Did Varnum ever report this finding to Custer? A lot of Indians and what they were doing was what Custer needed and wanted to know. But it seems from all we can discern, that Varnum never did reports this finding to Custer at any time as no mention of this is found anywhere. What happened later after that hour is telling. If Custer had known about a lot of Indians but no village, as Varnum put it to the court, would Custer have further divided his regiment and proceeded to do what he did do? Just how many was quote, "alot"? When you trace both Hare and Varnum's moves, they evidently knew something was up when Reno was ordered forward, for it was then when they departed their scout mission and returned to the trail, arriving there just after Custer had given Reno his orders. As there is that little Te-ta-te statement about the coffee coolers between him and Wallace, and little else that concerns the Indians or their village except the excitement of the chase.
Of course concerning the attack itself, it must be determined within the best of accuracy as we can, when it was decided to attack the Indians. Some might say Reno's mission, but that wasn't and still isn't accurate. Benteen had been sent off prior to this with orders to engage them once he found them, those quote, "pitch in" orders that nearly everyone likes to turn a blind eye to. So if a decision was made to attack them, with some kind of preconceived notion in Custer's mind as to how to do that, Benteen's mission had to have been part of that "pitch in" attack plan. So the decision on when to attack occurred long before Reno's mission was ever sent, or for that matter Custer's own decision to go down the right bank.
So why did Custer go down the right bank? Benteen said it best himself. "I suppose he had found what he had sent me to find out." As it turns out, Varnum and the rest of the Scouts/guides fared no better than Benteen. But, it was Benteens mission to find it out, as he himself so stated to the court. Varnum' error just compounded the problem and added to the unknowns for Custer, because whether or not Varnum reported what he saw to Custer, Custer still had to know what Benteen had been ordered to find out and report it back to him. 1) Where the village(s) were and 2) how many could be seen from those bluffs? If Varnum had reported "alot" just how many was alot and where were their village(s) from there?
After sending off Benteen, the security procedures would have meant keeping the scouting columns and Indian scouts closer in to prevent immediate surprise attack on the advancing troops. And this was why Benteen was sent on his mission when he was. If there was something there, Benteen would find it and attack it, sending back information about what he had found. Lets try it this way so it could be understood in the light of how Custer was perceiving things. Benteen on his mission sends back this message via courier. "Custer, Come on, Big village, be quick, bring pacs, ps bring pacs." Now just exactly what was Custer to make of this? He had sent Benteen to find this out. He had ordered Benteen to attack that village after sending him word back. What now if this was Before he had sent off Reno? What now if this was after he had sent off Reno? Because Benteen never did send back any word of his findings, Custer had to go do the spoiled child's mission for him. And when he sent off Reno it was based upon the few Indians he did know about and upon imprecise information about there being some kind of village there. This of course in the form of F. Girards statement from some knoll somewhere. Still, no word from Benteen....
There are of couse still those mis-perceptions about what the Scouts had been ordered to do by Custer. Even after they have told this story so many times, it still doesn't sink in. They of course must have been ordered on some kind of scout. This after Benteen had been sent away already. Hello there, knock knock. The decision to attack the Indians, cant say village just yet, had already been made, an battalion of Custer's best was already on the way to say to them "hello there and kind regards from the men of 7th US cavalry... Hi ho Silver away!" I suppose it has something to do with scouts being in scout apparel and garb till they find what they're looking for. Nope. Custer himself said to them, "I told you to pursue them and stop for nothing..." Huh, what was that again? He actually wanted the scouts to pursue and overtake the fleeing Indians and quote "stop for nothing", meaning that their stopping at the tepee and performing ritual coup rights upon it was definitely not in their best interest. Of course he follows up his statements to them saying "I'll send Major Reno's command, to paraphrase 'do your job for you." Now not unless Major Reno's mission was one of scouting, then theirs wouldn't have been either as they both had a definite target, and it wasn't a lone tepee. These scouts being Ree's of course, it was very handy that F. Girard, their Indian interpreter was close at hand to relay to them what Custer was saying to them. Had he been elsewhere, they probably would have thought his hysterics and antics the act of a mad man.
Quite naturally we have many today who still don't understand who was to do a recon in force. Custer wasn't and didn't rely upon the Indian guides and scouts here. How many times do we have to keep reading this to understand it. And from the Ree's action above you now know exactly why. These Indians both Ree's and Crows were more interested in what booty they could capture and take away from a measly few Indians than they were in fighting them and killing them. Give them a good coup stick and a fast horse and they'll scare the bejesus outta them and run off a measly pittance of their horses, capture a few things that might interest them, whether off a long dead Indian in a tepee or one still alive in their own, and that was all they were good for. Custer understood this, why don't we? So who was scouting/scoping this out for Custer, if it wasn't his scouts and guides? One word, Benteen. Benteen had been sent, as Benteen himself told it, to a line of bluffs before Custer would do anything else. He had been sent far enough ahead of the rest of the regiment to carry out and perform the actions Custer had delegated him to do. This information that he should have provided Custer, would have provided timely information for him to act upon it and make the right decisions that we don't see him doing today. The right one, in most peoples minds, being to have kept his regiment together. Sending scouts out when they have no ability to send their reports back to their commanders is, and it was in this case, useless. Or should we say as Benteen himself said of those orders, senseless. Of course it took someone the caliber of Benteen to have witnessed for himself the end result of those senseless orders.
Guides and Scouts to include native and non native alike:
1) Benteen's mission has always been labeled as a scout mission. And from Benteen's own words at the COI it seems as though his mission, in part, was to give Custer information (intelligence) on what lay behind the imposing ridge line (to include, Reno Hill, Sharpshooter, Weir peaks, Bouyer bluffs) that they couldn't ever see behind. For some people who investigate this, they think he moved left of the trail, but that wasn't ever confirmed by anyone who participated with the exception of Godfrey who made some reference to it years after the battle in one of his publications for public consumption. Godfrey always did carry a big chip on his shoulders, and he was one of few who blamed Reno more than the others for the fiasco. His performance at the COI is not understood within this context other than some kind esprit de corps, and, what good would it do his own commander, Benteen, if he didn't try to shine his boots and in the process not bring Reno down at the same time. As most stated after the fact, they didn't tell all they knew quite simply because they were not asked. Or, better put, were not asked the right questions. This important fact that he mentioned years after the fact being just one of those that still cast doubt on any who read it. Left wasn't then, and still today isn't a direction unless it is referenced to something that gives it direction.
Benteen's own instructions refer to Custer pointing to a quote, "line of bluffs" where he, Benteen was supposed to go. This same "line of bluffs was referenced back to him by asking Benteen at the COI if Custer couldn't have found out what was behind them (stated in the question as "line of bluffs) if he didn't send anyone there. Benteen's answer is priceless, "I suppose he found out what he had sent me to find out..." This admission tells us more about Benteen's mission than any other words. The valley he was supposed to go to (find) was the Little Big horn valley. The Indians he was to, quote, "look up" were the suspected Indians and numbers he would find there. And these he was to report back to Custer. But that wasn't all. He was to further go ahead and quote, "pitch into them". So technically it wasn't purely a recon mission. It was what Patton would later call "recon in force". This tactic Patton used was meant to sent a heavily armed recon unit forward to find the enemy's weakness and exploit it by further punching a hole through the enemy's lines. So the term recon or scout used by some if not all today is a misnomer because they try to forgive Benteen for not carrying out the recon in force part of his mission. Still to this day no one knows for sure exactly where Benteen went, and Godfrey's published report gives small explanation of Benteen's "pitch in" orders, which he couldn't have done the direction he tried to send him.
When it comes to the Crow guides there appears to be some kind of mistrust going on. The Crow guides were familiar with this area, and their knowledge should have been invaluable to Custer. But by appearances and the statements we do have about this, Custer didn't for some reason trust their judgment on these matters. Benteen stated it in so many words. Curley stated that Custer never asked "them" about that country. Odd as it seems, and no more than we have to go on, Custer evidently didn't trust them enough to guide him the right way. The evidence of this is in Martin's orders he sent back to Benteen, stating "big village", as if this was some kind of new revelation of unfounded knowledge up to that point. This is further confirmed by the "come on", "Be quick" instruction attached to that same note. Which by direct reference means what we found, we didn't expect.
So exactly what did or didn't Custer know? Both Reno and Benteen make mention at the COI that Custer had not plans for his attack that day. But there is a weakness in these statements. That weakness was in Custer's move down the right bank. Did Custer know there was another ford downstream, did he assume there was one, or was he trusting his guides on this one? whatever the answer is it negates the possibility that he had no plans. If you believe that Custer trusted his guides on this one, then he had to have asked them this before sending Reno and even Benteen off on their missions.
What did Custer's move down the right bank show? Consistency, recklessness, indecision, caution, inefficient use of his troops from the scouts/guides to his own 7th?
A careful examination of exactly where all those scouting elements were has to be appraised before condemning them or Custer. Varnum and Hare had both been on the left/front - right/front sides respectively of Custer's advance down Reno creek. And from what little we do know, Varnum did report the to court that he had seen alot of Indians but no village about an hour before their arrival at where Reno and Custer separated. This single piece of information should have been invaluable to Custer. But it has to be asked. Did Varnum ever report this finding to Custer? A lot of Indians and what they were doing was what Custer needed and wanted to know. But it seems from all we can discern, that Varnum never did reports this finding to Custer at any time as no mention of this is found anywhere. What happened later after that hour is telling. If Custer had known about a lot of Indians but no village, as Varnum put it to the court, would Custer have further divided his regiment and proceeded to do what he did do? Just how many was quote, "alot"? When you trace both Hare and Varnum's moves, they evidently knew something was up when Reno was ordered forward, for it was then when they departed their scout mission and returned to the trail, arriving there just after Custer had given Reno his orders. As there is that little Te-ta-te statement about the coffee coolers between him and Wallace, and little else that concerns the Indians or their village except the excitement of the chase.
Of course concerning the attack itself, it must be determined within the best of accuracy as we can, when it was decided to attack the Indians. Some might say Reno's mission, but that wasn't and still isn't accurate. Benteen had been sent off prior to this with orders to engage them once he found them, those quote, "pitch in" orders that nearly everyone likes to turn a blind eye to. So if a decision was made to attack them, with some kind of preconceived notion in Custer's mind as to how to do that, Benteen's mission had to have been part of that "pitch in" attack plan. So the decision on when to attack occurred long before Reno's mission was ever sent, or for that matter Custer's own decision to go down the right bank.
So why did Custer go down the right bank? Benteen said it best himself. "I suppose he had found what he had sent me to find out." As it turns out, Varnum and the rest of the Scouts/guides fared no better than Benteen. But, it was Benteens mission to find it out, as he himself so stated to the court. Varnum' error just compounded the problem and added to the unknowns for Custer, because whether or not Varnum reported what he saw to Custer, Custer still had to know what Benteen had been ordered to find out and report it back to him. 1) Where the village(s) were and 2) how many could be seen from those bluffs? If Varnum had reported "alot" just how many was alot and where were their village(s) from there?
After sending off Benteen, the security procedures would have meant keeping the scouting columns and Indian scouts closer in to prevent immediate surprise attack on the advancing troops. And this was why Benteen was sent on his mission when he was. If there was something there, Benteen would find it and attack it, sending back information about what he had found. Lets try it this way so it could be understood in the light of how Custer was perceiving things. Benteen on his mission sends back this message via courier. "Custer, Come on, Big village, be quick, bring pacs, ps bring pacs." Now just exactly what was Custer to make of this? He had sent Benteen to find this out. He had ordered Benteen to attack that village after sending him word back. What now if this was Before he had sent off Reno? What now if this was after he had sent off Reno? Because Benteen never did send back any word of his findings, Custer had to go do the spoiled child's mission for him. And when he sent off Reno it was based upon the few Indians he did know about and upon imprecise information about there being some kind of village there. This of course in the form of F. Girards statement from some knoll somewhere. Still, no word from Benteen....
There are of couse still those mis-perceptions about what the Scouts had been ordered to do by Custer. Even after they have told this story so many times, it still doesn't sink in. They of course must have been ordered on some kind of scout. This after Benteen had been sent away already. Hello there, knock knock. The decision to attack the Indians, cant say village just yet, had already been made, an battalion of Custer's best was already on the way to say to them "hello there and kind regards from the men of 7th US cavalry... Hi ho Silver away!" I suppose it has something to do with scouts being in scout apparel and garb till they find what they're looking for. Nope. Custer himself said to them, "I told you to pursue them and stop for nothing..." Huh, what was that again? He actually wanted the scouts to pursue and overtake the fleeing Indians and quote "stop for nothing", meaning that their stopping at the tepee and performing ritual coup rights upon it was definitely not in their best interest. Of course he follows up his statements to them saying "I'll send Major Reno's command, to paraphrase 'do your job for you." Now not unless Major Reno's mission was one of scouting, then theirs wouldn't have been either as they both had a definite target, and it wasn't a lone tepee. These scouts being Ree's of course, it was very handy that F. Girard, their Indian interpreter was close at hand to relay to them what Custer was saying to them. Had he been elsewhere, they probably would have thought his hysterics and antics the act of a mad man.
Quite naturally we have many today who still don't understand who was to do a recon in force. Custer wasn't and didn't rely upon the Indian guides and scouts here. How many times do we have to keep reading this to understand it. And from the Ree's action above you now know exactly why. These Indians both Ree's and Crows were more interested in what booty they could capture and take away from a measly few Indians than they were in fighting them and killing them. Give them a good coup stick and a fast horse and they'll scare the bejesus outta them and run off a measly pittance of their horses, capture a few things that might interest them, whether off a long dead Indian in a tepee or one still alive in their own, and that was all they were good for. Custer understood this, why don't we? So who was scouting/scoping this out for Custer, if it wasn't his scouts and guides? One word, Benteen. Benteen had been sent, as Benteen himself told it, to a line of bluffs before Custer would do anything else. He had been sent far enough ahead of the rest of the regiment to carry out and perform the actions Custer had delegated him to do. This information that he should have provided Custer, would have provided timely information for him to act upon it and make the right decisions that we don't see him doing today. The right one, in most peoples minds, being to have kept his regiment together. Sending scouts out when they have no ability to send their reports back to their commanders is, and it was in this case, useless. Or should we say as Benteen himself said of those orders, senseless. Of course it took someone the caliber of Benteen to have witnessed for himself the end result of those senseless orders.
