Custer's observation of the village

[tbw]

Okay folks here's a little puzzle for all of you. It begins with a, well... not so simple question:

Did Custer's observation of the village occur before or after Reno's skirmish line had set up?

What little we know of this observation was provided by John Martin. And there a a few people today trying to say that what he had to say wasn't all that reliable. His testimony at the COI does read like a brain drain rain gutter for what he might have been thinking at the time the question was asked. His mileages are undeniably inconsistent as are his statements of time. Some are insistent that his statements to the court were conveyed to the court in a linear measure. But even when you read, not just his section of the COI, but others as well, you quickly learn the courts questions to the witnesses were not always linear in proportion to the tale's they told, nor may I add linear in relation to the questions they asked.

A few things to consider:

1) Curley Helena Herald, July 15, 1876

Custer, with his five companies, after separating from Reno and his seven companies, "moved to the right around the base of a hill overlooking the valley of the Little Horn, through a ravine just wide enough to admit his column of fours. There was no sign of the presence of Indians in the hills on that side (the right) of the Little Horn, and the column moved steadily on until it rounded the hill and came in sight of the village lying in the valley below them. Custer appeared very much elated and ordered the bugle to sound a charge, and moved on at the head of his column, waving his hat to encourage his men."

This same route was also confirmed by Martin in one of his interviews, don't have it handy at the moment. Will try to add it later.

2) Timing. Timing would play heavily into when and where this could have occurred. But it is a very short window of opportunity. A window constrained by the events themselves, John Martin's own description, and spatially, whether or not it was even possible or plausible where such a sighting had been made, would have been believable under the circumstances. To early, the further Custer and his troops have to go "over those same bluffs" to die on that hill. And in all probablity, under this circumstance, see enough to correct his error. To late, well, was that even possible? What didn't Martin see that he should have? And more importantly, why?

[joewiggs]

I have chosen "after" based not so much on written knowledge but, what I perceive to be simple common sense. From either "Weir's Point" of "Sharpshooter's Ridge" Custer waves his hat to the men waiting below and says words to this effect: "We caught them napping Boys." Knowing the horrific outcome of the battle with warriors pouring out of the village like hot lava from Mt. Edna, what could have provoked such verbiage from the General.

According to Martini, the village was relatively empty yet, we know the inhabitants were not all in their tipi's sleeping;thats just not possible. Where were they then? Most of the warriors were speeding toward Reno at the southern portion of the village, even more were scrambling west toward the Indian Pony herd to retrieve their war horses. many were running south on foot, ahorse, or any other mode of transportation. In other words, Custer's plan was a complete success. the village was shocked and in awe at the sudden and unexpected approach of Reno.

Imagine that surprise and thankfulness the warriors experienced when Reno pulled up and when into a standing fight! Suddenly the tide turned as the offensive suddenly slipped from the calvary to the warriors.

This total disruption of the village could not have occurred unless something similar to what I have proposed occurred.

[strange]

It has been a throbbing question and I've never quite gotten a good official answer for it. I voted After to be safe. The best I am told is that Mitch Bouyer knew of Reno's defeat and may have seen it, Bouyer then probably relayed some of that information to Custer, and Bouyer was one of the first to get killed on the Custer side of things, so that is sorta the time line.

I don't know whether that defeat refers to the timber or the skirmish line though. But I'd be fairly safe to assume that Custer was either approachig or spotting the village at about the time that Reno was fleeing the Timber, which would have been after he fled TO the timber from the SKIRMISH LINE in the VALLEY that I think we're referring to.

The specifics are hard for me though and even a bit puzzling to the greatest experts because I assume Reno and some of the survivors likely played with the time line to cover their asses, meanwhile Custer is dead so we can't know everything of what he was doing, and then finally... the village just might be large enough to hide some of these things. It was probably as big as a town and iguring out all of what was happening may have been like trying to stretch your neck up and down any given local street where you live.

[tbw]

I think the answers so far, reflect a range of times and places, some stated, others not where Custer may have been. Sure we've all heard the answers before as Joe has reminded us, Weir Peak, which I believe was John Gray's idea, and of course Sharpshooter, being touted by more contemporaries today. Not that any of these ideas are wrong, as these answers best exemplify the perils associated with trying to identify time and place.

Years ago, and I do mean long before the names of Benteen, Reno or Custer was ever applied to MTC, it wasn't just one coulee as it has come to be known as today. In fact, it was a system of drainage's which included not only the present MTC but Deep Coulee and others as well! So when Bouyer and those who were with him crossed this system of drainage's to get to where Custer was headed, just where would that have been? Gray's writings have skewed this thought process to mean that Custer went down the (present) MTC, not exactly the right way to think. In limiting the place to the (present) MTC he also limited Custer's choices and our understanding; as today's Deep Coulee, as well as others in the ancient system are excluded from our consideration.

Not only the above, but as strange mentioned, there was things that wasn't told or should we say not talked about. While some may equate this to conspiracy, which it might have been if there was more than one man involved, it is generally accepted that this wasn't the case. I am more open minded on this score and am willing to discuss such likelihood that such existed. If it did, shouldn't there be a huge amount of evidence of it in the RCOI? Wouldn't it be consistent pitted against what we do know today? Regardless, I think enough evidence is there to determine with a certain certainty where Custer was or wasn't in relation to Reno's troops in the valley when he supposedly mounted some high point somewhere and looked down on the village.

Because there is a wide diversity of opinion here in strange's and Joe's idealism it would be good to know what they base their perceptions upon.

Strange said, "I'd be fairly safe to assume that Custer was either approaching or spotting the village at about the time that Reno was fleeing the Timber, which would have been after he fled TO the timber from the SKIRMISH LINE in the VALLEY that I think we're referring to."

And Joe stated, "From either "Weir's Point" of "Sharpshooter's Ridge" Custer waves his hat to the men waiting below and says words to this effect: "We caught them napping Boys." Knowing the horrific outcome of the battle with warriors pouring out of the village like hot lava from Mt. Edna, what could have provoked such verbiage from the General."

"According to Martini, the village was relatively empty yet, we know the inhabitants were not all in their tipi's sleeping;that's just not possible. Where were they then? Most of the warriors were speeding toward Reno at the southern portion of the village, even more were scrambling west toward the Indian Pony herd to retrieve their war horses. many were running south on foot, ahorse, or any other mode of transportation. In other words, Custer's plan was a complete success. the village was shocked and in awe at the sudden and unexpected approach of Reno."

These two opinions are inconsistent with each other, and I certainly can't and simply won't take sides in the matter. Both to me are perfectly acceptable conclusions drawn from what they have perceived over the years to be true. If we were to put them together as a compromise we could say that Custer viewed the village as he was "approaching or spotting the village at about the time that Reno was fleeing the Timber", this being either from "Weir Peak or Sharpshooter". Not sure how that would work. It might be something we have overlooked all these years, Benteen being near fd "A" while Custer was atop the mid-range of the bluffs and Reno preparing to steel his nerves take his glorious ride to safety.

One of the most thought provoking statements ever made was the sighting made by Lt. Varnum as Reno's skirmish line set up. In that statement he doesn't claim to have seen Custer (which to me adds credibility to his sighting for me), only a part of what would have been Custer's command, the white horse troop. This sighting, if true, would have placed those troops at that time just below Weir peaks and going down one of the ridge lines leading to MTC. Interesting that sighting, as they weren't going down a ravine or a coulee at the time, but actually riding down one of the ridges between the coulees below Weir Peak, and back & away from point 2, which when you think about it made perfect sense, why go into a coulee where you couldn't see a damn thing when nearly in contact with the enemy? Just my two cents here...

[stumblingbear]

I'm going to commit myself with this one no matter if I am right or wrong. My confidence grows everyday! Isn't it true that when Custer made his observation from Weir's Point that he saw very little movement? If that is so, where the Indians? Where they all asleep in their tepee's? I don't think so. I think that they were all running toward Reno. If that is the case (obviously) Custer made his observation after the scrimmage line from Reno.

If anyone is wondering why i am starting to push issues its because its a woman's prerogative!

[tbw]

Nov 25, 2011 20:45:45 GMT -5 stumblingbear said:

I'm going to commit myself with this one no matter if I am right or wrong. My confidence grows everyday! Isn't it true that when Custer made his observation from Weir's Point that he saw very little movement? If that is so, where the Indians? Where they all asleep in their tepee's? I don't think so. I think that they were all running toward Reno. If that is the case (obviously) Custer made his observation after the scrimmage line from Reno.

If anyone is wondering why i am starting to push issues its because its a woman's prerogative!

It sure is your prerogative! There is basically no right's or wrong's when it comes to discussing this battle. As I pointed out to Joe, if a belief is backed up with some kind of evidence, such as Reno's state of drunkedness, then whose to say any different? Sure we can disagree, that's what a discussion forum is all about. And any good forum should be an expression of diverse views and why we hold those views in evidence.

The rub here is as you put it, "where" Custer could have made such an observation. Sure, there are people who have stated Weir peak as well as other locations that seemed compatible with certain timing events. And your question, "where were all the Indians?" goes directly to the heart of the matter. Take into consideration the side conversation that also went on at that time. A quick officers call was made or from our understanding several officers of the companies were near Custer at that time and that very comment was made as to where all those Indians could have been. One of the officers suggested that they could have been out Buffalo hunting. This is interesting in light of the fact that if it had been in sight of Reno's valley fight, (which Weir Peak, 3411, sharpshooter& Reno Hill was) at least some 500 up to 900 of those Indians were attacking Reno's position there. Several decisions need to be made at this point. Was there more than enough tepee's to suggest that the number of Indians attacking Reno wasn't enough? OR, didn't Custer, as Martin's sighting seems to suggest, see Reno's position from where he made that observation?

To further the above, think about this just a moment. What if it was the latter? Would Custer have thought Reno in no danger as custer didn't see any warriors anywhere? Or did Custer see and know that there wasn't enough warriors attacking Reno's position to account for all those tepee's? Now back to Custer's statement. Did Custer really think that they caught them napping? And if he did and if he did make that statement, which it is apparent that he did, which of the two choices above seems the most plausible?

The problem here is assigning Custer the sightings from the bluffs where he made none. this was made absolutely clear from the scouts themselves. And the one time he did make a sighting was where and when? If it was early as Weir or before that, that would suggest he should have seen some warriors. He didn't! As is evidenced in his own statement when he arrives at his observation point. The when's and where's in all of this has been warped by time; and as a result all we are left with are a whole lot of paradoxes that just happen to fit someone's supersilious notion of how it should have went down based entirely upon where they died that had absolutely nothing do to with how they got there.

[stumblingbear]

Where I get totally lost at is far north, west, or south could Custer see from his location and what was the real meaning of "napping." If you could explain these things or point me to a source I would be very grateful.

If he could not see far enough south (intervening hills) he could not know how many Indians had gone toward Reno I think. the same thing is true with the other directions.

Did "napping" mean actually asleep (the Indians were dancing most of the night) or did he mean that they had made a mistake by having their guard down.

As you said I'm not sure that he made any sightings other than the crossing at Medicine trail Coulee. What do you think he saw there?

[strange]

Nov 26, 2011 14:17:32 GMT -5 stumblingbear said:

Where I get totally lost at is far north, west, or south could Custer see from his location and what was the real meaning of "napping." If you could explain these things or point me to a source I would be very grateful.

If he could not see far enough south (intervening hills) he could not know how many Indians had gone toward Reno I think. the same thing is true with the other directions.

Did "napping" mean actually asleep (the Indians were dancing most of the night) or did he mean that they had made a mistake by having their guard down.

As you said I'm not sure that he made any sightings other than the crossing at Medicine trail Coulee. What do you think he saw there?

From what I am told, it is always taken for granted (wisely taken for granted, I'm not using that phrase to knock it) that Indians are not good in the morning. Custer's men had been force marched for a few days I think and he had planned to rest them and attack the next day but the scouts said it was a bad plan and that he needed to do it right away.

He ended up striking them about noon I suppose, and I'll let everyone else try to figure the precise time , where the Indians were indeed sort napping but also just waking up, probably snoozing in longer because they were having special celebrations about the Rosebud battle.

Custer apparently sighted very few warriors and assumed they were either out hunting or asleep, thus "caught them napping" kinda applies to both those connotations you state. It means he didn't see warriors, so they were either asleep or somewhere else, thus having their guard down. Or maybe he really did see people laying around in addition to being absent so thus quipped that comment accordingly. Some people are not even sure that he said it, but I like to believe he did.

Strange

[joewiggs]

Dr. Strange, I enjoyed the above and view your post as highly likely. I never pictured, in my mind, the scenario you painted but, somehow it feels right . Thank you.

[tbw]

Yes, sir strange did a very good job on that one. There were very few sources for what Custer said as he went down the right bank. Curley, Martini are the primary sources and they generally are denigrated for either what they stated, the way they stated it or even why they stated it. Of course there were others, who eluded the grasp of the Indians somehow and also survived to tell their stories and they had much to tell and say as well, even it being denigrated to the point of laughter. One supposes if it was so damn funny, how would have looking at 225+/- stripped naked mutilated dead men on a lonely hillside in a godforsaken place as Montana was then have helped them create such humor?

I've always liked the comments that were attributed to Custer at that time, the one's that caused him to conclude that they would "finish up here and go home to their station". You like I have heard all the comments about this. Some even saying that what Custer saw down there, to quote, "it didn't scare him" or "he wasn't afraid of what he observed there". As if he should have somehow realized his Little BIG horn mistake at that very point in time. So I ask you, WHAT WAS CUSTER SEEING at that very point in time that SHOULD HAVE, COULD HAVE, WOULD HAVE possibly scared the man out of his ever wife loving wits enough to get the "H" out of there instead of pressing home the attack?

Nope, "...we'll finish up here and go home to our station": As if he indeed honestly believed as he honestly expressed that they all must have been asleep in their tepee's or as one of his other officers suggested, buffalo hunting. WHAT, no 500 to 900 screaming Indians bearing down on Reno? Or fighting him? Or that damn dust cloud that should have. could have, would have indicated a great battle going on there. Surely Custer should have known that, whatever he saw they must be Indians? Right?

No, lets not forget Reno in this equation. But you have to include every statement ever made about this period of time to understand it. In the end, did Custer from his observation point see the Indians that were either going to attack Reno, attacking Reno, or coming back to cook his goose lilly livered white? Think about it.

[whitebull]

Great follow up T.W.B, you have cleared up (Strange too) a lot of issues for me about what happened on the look out! Sure makes sense to me!