|
|
Post by joewiggs on Jun 9, 2013 18:17:09 GMT -5
For sometime now I have taken the time to re-evaluate and challenge my prior beliefs and convictions of the "Whys" and "How Comes" that culminated in the fatalistic outcome (for the soldiers) of the battle of the Little Big Horn.
In the process, my convictions of the roles of Reno and Benteen played in this historical drama has altered somewhat. I do (presently) not believe Reno was a coward! for anyone who may have read my posts through out the years that statement must be shocking and inexplicable;let me explain. Reno's prior military service in the War between the States decries any accusations that insist he was cowardly during this incredibly horrific action.
A culmination of personal tragedies and, an attempt to deal with the death of his wife, the estrangement of his only son (through no fault of his own) led this man to stumble down the arduous path of social estrangement and a sordid intoxication until he was no longer the "man" he was but, the shadow he became.
Inebriated during the battle, convinced that he had been abandoned by Custer, his decision making process became inert, resulting in a decorous modem that failed him at a critical moment.
Reno then committed a cowardly "act" and fled. One act of instability in war does not define the entire history and life of a man. I actually, now, feel sympathy for him.
Benteen, in my opinion, was as good a soldier as anyone could imagine. He was also one of the most vindictive individual s of that era. A vindictiveness so strong that he allowed it to influence his decision process during his "scout" and upon the hill with Reno.
I can not believe I'm saying what I'm saying after all these years. Perhaps I'm just getting senile or I may becoming just a little bit wiser;who knows?
|
|
|
|
Post by whitebull on Jun 9, 2013 18:39:19 GMT -5
I must admit I'm just a tad surprised at your change of heart. Your past saying sure didn't give Reno or Benteen to much sway.  I think you may have hit on something though. Reno did muff it up when he charged dem hills (leading all the way) but, him doing so becomes a little more understandable when you count the odds he faced. Benteen was sure enough ornery at times when he felt the urge. Maybe he didn't move sooner to Custer then he did because he realized that the men were beaten and demoralized! Hell, who knows? |
|
|
|
Post by tbw on Jun 10, 2013 23:33:37 GMT -5
For sometime now I have taken the time to re-evaluate and challenge my prior beliefs and convictions of the "Whys" and "How Comes" that culminated in the fatalistic outcome (for the soldiers) of the battle of the Little Big Horn. In the process, my convictions of the roles of Reno and Benteen played in this historical drama has altered somewhat. I do (presently) not believe Reno was a coward! for anyone who may have read my posts through out the years that statement must be shocking and inexplicable;let me explain. Reno's prior military service in the War between the States decries any accusations that insist he was cowardly during this incredibly horrific action. A culmination of personal tragedies and, an attempt to deal with the death of his wife, the estrangement of his only son (through no fault of his own) led this man to stumble down the arduous path of social estrangement and a sordid intoxication until he was no longer the "man" he was but, the shadow he became. Inebriated during the battle, convinced that he had been abandoned by Custer, his decision making process became inert, resulting in a decorous modem that failed him at a critical moment. Reno then committed a cowardly "act" and fled. One act of instability in war does not define the entire history and life of a man. I actually, now, feel sympathy for him. Benteen, in my opinion, was as good a soldier as anyone could imagine. He was also one of the most vindictive individual s of that era. A vindictiveness so strong that he allowed it to influence his decision process during his "scout" and upon the hill with Reno. I can not believe I'm saying what I'm saying after all these years. Perhaps I'm just getting senile or I may becoming just a little bit wiser;who knows? I've always believed that with age comes wisdom. And its somewhat time appropriate for this one. Its a saying I've always taken to heart. He who learns must suffer Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God. Aeschylus 525 BC – 456 BC The jury still is out on Reno. It all depends upon how long it took him from the time he set up his SL until he began his retreat. Those there state a time no less than about 20 minutes (Girard) and no more than 45 minutes (Wallace) after he set up his SL. If he was able to hold for that 45 minutes time Wallace made claim to, then we have to look at his effort in a different light. If however that time was closer to Girards time (abt. 20 minutes) then something else was going on. One of the things that always has bothered me about this episode was what Curley said about Custer's trumpeters opening up trumpet calls for quite a length of time and ongoing and non stop during a certain time after leaving the bluffs. If there was a time for Custer to have used a trumpet call to Reno, he had ample time and advantage to have done so as he supposedly rushed over the tops of those bluffs. Question is: did he? And if he did, then why wasn't this brought to light at the COI? For Benteen, much the same. He had ample opportunity to have blared those horns for assembly, re-assembly or any other tune that should have brought his regiment together without any effort had he chosen to have done that. All commands were within hearing distance of those horns from the tops of those bluffs, this to include Benteen and the pack train as well. Did he? And if he didn't, why not? |
|
|
|
Post by whitebull on Jun 14, 2013 7:36:44 GMT -5
Man, you guys have really got me to thinking! If a man flunks out one time in his life does that make him a looser for ever? Hell, I ain't got a clue to answer that question.
If horns were blasting how come they were not heard? I'm starting to believe that the "truth and nothing but the whole truth" didn't show up at the Reno trial.
tbw, that poem sure made me do a lot of thinking. If we live long enough one day we get smart enough.
Both of you did a great job!
|
|
|
|
Post by joewiggs on Jun 14, 2013 18:32:09 GMT -5
WB, for "Lo", these many years, my perspective of Reno has been austere, unforgiving, and final; he was an outright coward! I recall that one of his descendants managed to have (recently) his past actions reviewed which culminated in Reno's body being reinterred to that hollow ground, The Big Horn Battlefield. I also recall becoming furious when I first read of thie efforts in which, in my mind, was a disgrace and abomination to those soldiers who fought gallantly. At last, I realized I was terrible wrong. Reno was also wrong as well. I now believe that he honestly believed that Custer could not get to him in time;he should have waited just a few minutes more. However, overwhelmed by the slew of Indian arrows and bullets filling the air an unbearable conflagration of death, Reno ran! In doing so, he neglected to provide the "standard" protocol of military procedures such as ensuring a "rear-guard" movement to provide protection to the retreating troops. Sometime ago on another forum, a poster stated that Reno's failure to form a "rear-guard" was understandable, who was going to volunteer for such a dangerous assignment (para-phrase). This was not a situation of "volunteers" it was a "demand" of military protocol! American military training that enables soldiers and officers to lead and, also, men to follow failed in this particular battle because leadership (Reno) failed. American soldiers are inspired by "leadership", commanders who take command no matter the dangers men must face! Reno, Custer, and Benteen were unfairly placed in a volatile, military position (by General's) that resulted in the death of these men. Reno inexorbidly stripped of his humanity, his right to provide for his son, and the hope of dignity when the military denied his human request to bury his wife. Liquor became the remedy to his subsequent heartbreak and sorrow. This same liquor reduced that soldier to a shadow of what he was. A shadow that was incapable of leadership on a particular day and battle! God Bless him. 
|
|
|
|
Post by stumblingbear on Jun 14, 2013 18:37:57 GMT -5
It takes strength to admit that what you have believed and vested so much in may be incorrect. I salute you!
tbw, "He who learns must suffer" is wonderful! Thank you for such a wonderful poem!
|
|
|
|
Post by whitebull on Jun 23, 2013 16:33:35 GMT -5
Thank You! ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by joewiggs on Jul 5, 2013 20:07:05 GMT -5
WB, I got a question for you that I would like to receive a reply. First a quote: "Those who accused him of recklessness would, perhaps, have been the first to accuse him of timidity if he had not attacked, and thus allow the enemy to escape unhurt." How much validity would you give this statement? |
|
|
|
Post by whitebull on Jul 6, 2013 20:11:52 GMT -5
No question partner! Look at it this way, It's hot, you been shot two or three times, you look around and most everybody is dead or hurt, you only got one round left and there ain't a chance in hell that you are gonna get out of the situation. The next step?---Ka-Pow and good-by! ;D Any body on the board who would have done anything else please speak up!  |
|
|
|
Post by joewiggs on Aug 3, 2013 14:18:47 GMT -5
In order to better understand this battle one must have a non-contemporaneous understanding of the men who fought the battle and the public that endorsed it. to evaluate the battle in contemporaneous times will lead the student into an unanticipated and sudden "blind alley" only seeing one perspective. How things would have been done in our life times. How we do it now is a far cry of how things were done then.
For example, when gold was discovered in the Black Hills, the lust for the riches there prompted thousands of people and hundreds of lawyers to get their parsimonious claws upon the golden bounty;simultaneously the people who lived there (Indians) were regarded with heightened contempt due to their obstinacy in refusing to leave. Soon, very soon, Indian outrages real and perceived were aggressively handles without regard to moral and property issues. In fact, the very nature of the American Indians humanity was reduced to the status of a lowly, aggressive, heathen animal that required a hasty barbaric removal.
Treated with contempt, their arms for good hunting taken away while pushed upon reservations ill suited for crops rebellion was instantly met with force. A damned if you do and a damned if you don't scenario if you will.
The American public became openly hostile (understandably so) against they who were ill treated by the government of the very same people. Once hate for a human species becomes the norm, Masscre becomes its handmaiden.
Indian warfare became an exercise of chagrining the village, shooting down warriors, women, and children at random, then rustling up the broken survivors to another reservation. naturally, when the Indians killed in return they were classified as demons and so the slaughter continued.
Had Custer not attacked when he did and the Indians had managed to escape unscathed, rest assured he would have been Court-Marshaled as a result;the public would have demanded it!i
A famous General said it best when he reviewed the circumstances of the battle in 1887.
He commented:
"Those who accused him of reckless rashness would,perhaps, have been the first to accuse him of timidity if he had not attacked, and thus allowed the enemy to escape unhurt."
|
|
|
|
Post by whitebull on Aug 3, 2013 19:04:39 GMT -5
I don't know JW, what you say may have something to it. You gave me some room for though. Speaking of thinking, your bit about the lawyer's makes a whole lot of sense. They were pains in the butt then and they are still pains in the butt now! This reminds me of a tragic story I heard the other day. It seems that a metro size bus fell off a 6,000 ft. cliff, hit the ground and just busted into horrible flames, everyone aboard died a terrible death. As it turned out, there was good news and bad news. The good news is the bus was filled with lawyers coming back from Vegas. The bad news is there was one empty seat!  |
|
|
|
Post by strange on Aug 3, 2013 20:35:00 GMT -5
I'm actually enjoying Reno a little more lately. I think he's intelligent and well experienced to a degree (not quite in battle but in things like running an army or a fort). The Major rank kinda sucks, its almost like Alice Cooper's Eighteen song except I'm not sure if they'd actually say they like it. These guys are second or third in command of the Custer style regiments and they're expected to follow orders yet they're also too high to be treated like grunts.
|
|
|
|
Post by joewiggs on Aug 4, 2013 10:45:15 GMT -5
Dr. Strange, it is, as always, a great pleasure to hear from you! I,too, have come to see Reno in different light;.one that encompasses issues other than his inevitable performance at the Little Big Horn.
The tragic circumstances of his family life would have driven me (I believe) to far more dismal reactions to life's pit falls in general and, death in particular. :'(y.
With the great sorrow he suffered, drink robbed him of every shred of dignity.
|
|
|
|
Post by stumblingbear on Aug 4, 2013 14:02:13 GMT -5
I'm actually enjoying Reno a little more lately. I think he's intelligent and well experienced to a degree (not quite in battle but in things like running an army or a fort). The Major rank kinda sucks, its almost like Alice Cooper's Eighteen song except I'm not sure if they'd actually say they like it. These guys are second or third in command of the Custer style regiments and they're expected to follow orders yet they're also too high to be treated like grunts. I see what you mean. Before this battle he seemed to have done really well. Like Joe said, alcohol after the his wife's passing and the lost of his son might have pushed a decent man and soldier over the edge. |
|
|
|
Post by stumblingbear on Aug 4, 2013 14:04:27 GMT -5
I don't know JW, what you say may have something to it. You gave me some room for though. Speaking of thinking, your bit about the lawyer's makes a whole lot of sense. They were pains in the butt then and they are still pains in the butt now! This reminds me of a tragic story I heard the other day. It seems that a metro size bus fell off a 6,000 ft. cliff, hit the ground and just busted into horrible flames, everyone aboard died a terrible death. As it turned out, there was good news and bad news. The good news is the bus was filled with lawyers coming back from Vegas. The bad news is there was one empty seat! No offense meant WB but, you have a bizarre sense of humor!  |
|
I think you may have hit on something though. Reno did muff it up when he charged dem hills (leading all the way) but, him doing so becomes a little more understandable when you count the odds he faced.
