Post by tbw on Jan 30, 2010 14:26:43 GMT -5
Excerpts from Issue #2:
The Divide: Paradoxes in Time and Place
Throughout my years in researching this battle, I have often ran across many a conflicting statement or testimony that totally refutes what another participant had said concerning that same event. While this serves to only add confusion to the efforts of the many who do try, it has, regardless of whatever one thinks, produced many of the myths that has made this battle as controversial and debatable as it is to this very day.
Perhaps there is no finer example of this confusion than that of Lt. Wallaces official time, when he stated in 1877 that they passed over the divide at noon. This of course has literally been the accepted version for many who have studied this battle simply because he was supposed to have been the one in the know. Many problems arise from this time however because his is literally and figuratively the only one that states this as that time. Sure there were others who followed suit when at the Court of Inquiry, it was none other than Lt. Wallace who was chosen first among the 7th to testify. The others admittedly, followed his lead.
Many problems arise when we confront the issue of the divide crossing at Wallace’s noon stated time. First, the Indians themselves always said that the battle began at noon. One should think that noon, a time when the sun is directly overhead, and a time when most people eat lunch, is a time one does not easily forget. And it just isn’t the Indians themselves who refute Wallace’s noon divide crossing statement, Reno, Godfrey, Mathey, DeRudio, Girard, Porter, Benteen all state times much earlier in the morning. To mention but a few here, Reno in his official report stated 8:00 am, Benteen in a correspondence to his wife stated 8:30 am when they were crossing that divide. The contrast can easily be seen, as the inference in the outcome easily discerned.
Why this worry over time? For one thing, many today take John Gray’s fine example of time-motion study seriously and attempt to do what he did. And if they are attempting to do this with the wrong time(s), what impact does this have upon their study? The problem arises when they attempt to fit their assumed times, usually Wallace’s stated noon crossing of the divide into the battle times and extrapolate that from what others stated happened, when and where. While if one attempts to follow along using only the COI as a guide and Wallace’s stated noon crossing, only then will it make sense only to them, because they have to deny or refute other’s statements and testimony that would conflict with what they think happened. And what happened? Most of this if timely analyzed comes off as knee jerk reaction events seemingly spatially spastic as something right out of a science fiction movie.
Many an amateur researcher today attempts to figure out when and where, and then attempt to place a time to the event, or for that matter try to figure out whether or not that event happened more than once. One such event, where Custer went to the Crows Nest, is usually measured off in a distance from his camp at about 3 to 5 miles. Now he’s supposed to have done this how many times? And at what gait(s)? While these gaits and distances seem to fit Wallaces’s noon time, what doesn’t fit is Custer’s “zeal, energy, and ability…when nearly in contact with the enemy” and indeed “hampers” his actions by those very “impositions”, and this alone should tell us that he himself would not have waited until noon to cross that divide, which lay at only about 2 miles from that Crows Nest.
Myth #1, 2 trips to the Crows Nest by Custer:
John Gray took things out of order, and his “ellipses” are proof positive of evidence tampering. One cannot take these things out of the sequence in which they were stated to have happened. Sure, with Indians, perhaps even Martin one could and indeed should do this. However, it should be rarely if ever used or tried: Yet Gray did this consistently throughout his work. Why? To make his “times” fit his theory. What he did not do, was use the information before him to investigate what happened. One uses the information given to lead to a proper conclusion, and I would bet, rarely if ever, does anything occur “out of sequence” so that anyone would have to place as many “ellipses” as Gray does in his work, to understand the truth.
Everyone knows where Custer was in the early morning hours. Girard tells us the time approximate when Custer left camp - 4 am. Now rather than extrapolate the mileage from the time - one must simply find a statement of distances marched and extrapolate the time. Who does this? Reno, Benteen and Girard. Each one of these gentlemen were impeccably accurate with mileages/distances and the times it took.
One can also find out how long it took Custer to go from Camp to the Crows Nest and back to where he was next sighted by the men in the column. That was at that 1st halt after leaving Camp.
Now then Benteen did state in his July 4th letter; how long it took and how far they had gone to that first halt. And he states that as a “first halt.” Benteen said they left about 5:30 am (about 1 ½ hours after Custer had departed for the Crows Nest according to Girard). He went on to add that they marched about 6 to 7 miles in 4 hours. Leaving at 5:30 (Reno in his official report said 5 am) and ending 4 hours later at 9 - 9:30 am, they then had gone 6 to 7 miles. Reno said that by this time they had passed over the divide at 8 am, and was down in a tributary that led to the LBH. Both of these figures are in agreement with the times and the distances as stated. Enter Girard: He stated that it was 5 miles from where they camped to that divide. Now watch as one extrapolates the correct times from the mileages, that will show that all three are in full agreement as to the time, the mileages, when and where all this had occurred. And YET, each one of these were all stated at different times, and different places under different circumstances, so no possibility of collusion was possible. Reno’s came from his Official Report. Benteen’s comes from his July 4th Letter. And Girard’s comes from the RCOI.
The speed of the column was between 1.5 and 1.75 mph. They set no speed records, but then without their commander and in a deep valley in the very early morning twilight one supposes - just what was occurring here? Reno stated that they left at 5 am and Benteen at 5:30 am, which to all intents and purposes at this point does not matter. But we will figure both. At 1.5 mph they would arrive at or near the divide and have gone, 4.5 miles. At 1.75 mph they would arrive at or near the divide and have gone 5.25 miles. It appears that had their speed been consistent that the latter 1.75 would tend to be correct, because Reno did state that they had passed over the divide by that time. The rate of speed would indeed be 1.75 mph taking 4 hours to cover about 7 miles: And at that time they were 2 miles past the divide down in Reno Creek.
This 9 to 9:30 time is then when Custer halted the command as Benteen noted in his letter. And one will note here that when he addressed the men at the officers call, that he called there; they did state that he said that he had “just came back from the mountain”. Total time Custer had been gone from the column; or at the very, least the known times that he was with that column, and at which times and places one knows for certain he was with it? About 4am to 9 to 9:30 pm. 5 to 5 1/2 hours apart. Now whether one trip or two is a moot point because the total time for Custer’s absence is accounted for.
Now for a bit on Varnum, who was at the Crows nest. His letter to Camp 1909, pg 61:
“The command came in vision about this time and we watched it approach the gap where it halted. I rode down toward the column and soon met the general. Tom Custer and Calhoun came up to us and Gen. Custer was angry at their leaving the column and ordered them back. I told the General all I had seen, as we rode toward Crow’s Nest hill, which we climbed together. Custer listened to Boyer, while he gazed long and hard at the valley… He and I went down the hill together.”
Apparently there were two trips to this Crows Nest by Custer. Or, we are missing something here. Varnum had stated that he had sent an Indian scout back to tell Custer of his findings, and Varnum stated a number of times associated with that, when he did that; these range anytime from 4am to 8 am in the morning. But here he mentions that Tom and Calhoun were there apparently ahead of the column and Custer orders them back to the column. Gray in his book CLC, thinks this was the time that Girard had his observations about Custer asking Tom about who had ordered the column moved. But that does not appear to be the case, as Varnum does not confirm this. Indeed these were two separate events, or appears that way. And it appears Varnum himself went down to get Custer to take him to the Crows Nest himself, perhaps along with that Indian he had previously ordered to go: This occurring the one and only time that he, Custer went there. This occurring at about 4am that morning.
Now regress to that point where Tom Custer and Cooke were present and were inquiring of the General before he left for the Crows Nest. Girard, RCOI, pg 108:
“As I was getting ready and had my back turned to Gen. Custer, either Lt. Cooke or Tom Custer came up and asked him if the command should follow. He said, “No, you will remain here until I return.” We then mounted and rode on to the foot of the mountain…” Girard's statement matches this perfectly with Varnum‘s! “I rode down toward the column and soon met the general. Tom Custer and Calhoun came up to us and Gen. Custer was angry at their leaving the column and ordered them back” [saying] “No, you will remain here until I return.” [Note the same wording!] It would have been appropriate for Custer to have ordered Tom back to the Camp at that time. Either Varnum’s memory was bad, or he had a severe case of sleeplessness. In either event Varnum’s statements are suspect as to accuracy, and for good reason: And so may I add were Gray’s analysis of those events that he tried to use as evidence, and placing them severely out of context in creating the myths he himself founded, which simply was that 2nd trip to the Crows Nest that never occurred.
What about Girard’s misinterpretation of “someone moving the column”? The column may have started moving when all these senior people left, and Custer was angry at Tom and Calhoun &/or Cooke for leaving and inciting the movement of the column at that time. Again, Girard if questioned properly, may very well have remembered those events as Varnum had, but the Court didn’t see fit to follow up on the “exact wording" in Varnum and Girards statements. Had they done so, this business of a 2nd trip never would have surfaced.
Continued for Membership....
The Divide: Paradoxes in Time and Place
Throughout my years in researching this battle, I have often ran across many a conflicting statement or testimony that totally refutes what another participant had said concerning that same event. While this serves to only add confusion to the efforts of the many who do try, it has, regardless of whatever one thinks, produced many of the myths that has made this battle as controversial and debatable as it is to this very day.
Perhaps there is no finer example of this confusion than that of Lt. Wallaces official time, when he stated in 1877 that they passed over the divide at noon. This of course has literally been the accepted version for many who have studied this battle simply because he was supposed to have been the one in the know. Many problems arise from this time however because his is literally and figuratively the only one that states this as that time. Sure there were others who followed suit when at the Court of Inquiry, it was none other than Lt. Wallace who was chosen first among the 7th to testify. The others admittedly, followed his lead.
Many problems arise when we confront the issue of the divide crossing at Wallace’s noon stated time. First, the Indians themselves always said that the battle began at noon. One should think that noon, a time when the sun is directly overhead, and a time when most people eat lunch, is a time one does not easily forget. And it just isn’t the Indians themselves who refute Wallace’s noon divide crossing statement, Reno, Godfrey, Mathey, DeRudio, Girard, Porter, Benteen all state times much earlier in the morning. To mention but a few here, Reno in his official report stated 8:00 am, Benteen in a correspondence to his wife stated 8:30 am when they were crossing that divide. The contrast can easily be seen, as the inference in the outcome easily discerned.
Why this worry over time? For one thing, many today take John Gray’s fine example of time-motion study seriously and attempt to do what he did. And if they are attempting to do this with the wrong time(s), what impact does this have upon their study? The problem arises when they attempt to fit their assumed times, usually Wallace’s stated noon crossing of the divide into the battle times and extrapolate that from what others stated happened, when and where. While if one attempts to follow along using only the COI as a guide and Wallace’s stated noon crossing, only then will it make sense only to them, because they have to deny or refute other’s statements and testimony that would conflict with what they think happened. And what happened? Most of this if timely analyzed comes off as knee jerk reaction events seemingly spatially spastic as something right out of a science fiction movie.
Many an amateur researcher today attempts to figure out when and where, and then attempt to place a time to the event, or for that matter try to figure out whether or not that event happened more than once. One such event, where Custer went to the Crows Nest, is usually measured off in a distance from his camp at about 3 to 5 miles. Now he’s supposed to have done this how many times? And at what gait(s)? While these gaits and distances seem to fit Wallaces’s noon time, what doesn’t fit is Custer’s “zeal, energy, and ability…when nearly in contact with the enemy” and indeed “hampers” his actions by those very “impositions”, and this alone should tell us that he himself would not have waited until noon to cross that divide, which lay at only about 2 miles from that Crows Nest.
Myth #1, 2 trips to the Crows Nest by Custer:
John Gray took things out of order, and his “ellipses” are proof positive of evidence tampering. One cannot take these things out of the sequence in which they were stated to have happened. Sure, with Indians, perhaps even Martin one could and indeed should do this. However, it should be rarely if ever used or tried: Yet Gray did this consistently throughout his work. Why? To make his “times” fit his theory. What he did not do, was use the information before him to investigate what happened. One uses the information given to lead to a proper conclusion, and I would bet, rarely if ever, does anything occur “out of sequence” so that anyone would have to place as many “ellipses” as Gray does in his work, to understand the truth.
Everyone knows where Custer was in the early morning hours. Girard tells us the time approximate when Custer left camp - 4 am. Now rather than extrapolate the mileage from the time - one must simply find a statement of distances marched and extrapolate the time. Who does this? Reno, Benteen and Girard. Each one of these gentlemen were impeccably accurate with mileages/distances and the times it took.
One can also find out how long it took Custer to go from Camp to the Crows Nest and back to where he was next sighted by the men in the column. That was at that 1st halt after leaving Camp.
Now then Benteen did state in his July 4th letter; how long it took and how far they had gone to that first halt. And he states that as a “first halt.” Benteen said they left about 5:30 am (about 1 ½ hours after Custer had departed for the Crows Nest according to Girard). He went on to add that they marched about 6 to 7 miles in 4 hours. Leaving at 5:30 (Reno in his official report said 5 am) and ending 4 hours later at 9 - 9:30 am, they then had gone 6 to 7 miles. Reno said that by this time they had passed over the divide at 8 am, and was down in a tributary that led to the LBH. Both of these figures are in agreement with the times and the distances as stated. Enter Girard: He stated that it was 5 miles from where they camped to that divide. Now watch as one extrapolates the correct times from the mileages, that will show that all three are in full agreement as to the time, the mileages, when and where all this had occurred. And YET, each one of these were all stated at different times, and different places under different circumstances, so no possibility of collusion was possible. Reno’s came from his Official Report. Benteen’s comes from his July 4th Letter. And Girard’s comes from the RCOI.
The speed of the column was between 1.5 and 1.75 mph. They set no speed records, but then without their commander and in a deep valley in the very early morning twilight one supposes - just what was occurring here? Reno stated that they left at 5 am and Benteen at 5:30 am, which to all intents and purposes at this point does not matter. But we will figure both. At 1.5 mph they would arrive at or near the divide and have gone, 4.5 miles. At 1.75 mph they would arrive at or near the divide and have gone 5.25 miles. It appears that had their speed been consistent that the latter 1.75 would tend to be correct, because Reno did state that they had passed over the divide by that time. The rate of speed would indeed be 1.75 mph taking 4 hours to cover about 7 miles: And at that time they were 2 miles past the divide down in Reno Creek.
This 9 to 9:30 time is then when Custer halted the command as Benteen noted in his letter. And one will note here that when he addressed the men at the officers call, that he called there; they did state that he said that he had “just came back from the mountain”. Total time Custer had been gone from the column; or at the very, least the known times that he was with that column, and at which times and places one knows for certain he was with it? About 4am to 9 to 9:30 pm. 5 to 5 1/2 hours apart. Now whether one trip or two is a moot point because the total time for Custer’s absence is accounted for.
Now for a bit on Varnum, who was at the Crows nest. His letter to Camp 1909, pg 61:
“The command came in vision about this time and we watched it approach the gap where it halted. I rode down toward the column and soon met the general. Tom Custer and Calhoun came up to us and Gen. Custer was angry at their leaving the column and ordered them back. I told the General all I had seen, as we rode toward Crow’s Nest hill, which we climbed together. Custer listened to Boyer, while he gazed long and hard at the valley… He and I went down the hill together.”
Apparently there were two trips to this Crows Nest by Custer. Or, we are missing something here. Varnum had stated that he had sent an Indian scout back to tell Custer of his findings, and Varnum stated a number of times associated with that, when he did that; these range anytime from 4am to 8 am in the morning. But here he mentions that Tom and Calhoun were there apparently ahead of the column and Custer orders them back to the column. Gray in his book CLC, thinks this was the time that Girard had his observations about Custer asking Tom about who had ordered the column moved. But that does not appear to be the case, as Varnum does not confirm this. Indeed these were two separate events, or appears that way. And it appears Varnum himself went down to get Custer to take him to the Crows Nest himself, perhaps along with that Indian he had previously ordered to go: This occurring the one and only time that he, Custer went there. This occurring at about 4am that morning.
Now regress to that point where Tom Custer and Cooke were present and were inquiring of the General before he left for the Crows Nest. Girard, RCOI, pg 108:
“As I was getting ready and had my back turned to Gen. Custer, either Lt. Cooke or Tom Custer came up and asked him if the command should follow. He said, “No, you will remain here until I return.” We then mounted and rode on to the foot of the mountain…” Girard's statement matches this perfectly with Varnum‘s! “I rode down toward the column and soon met the general. Tom Custer and Calhoun came up to us and Gen. Custer was angry at their leaving the column and ordered them back” [saying] “No, you will remain here until I return.” [Note the same wording!] It would have been appropriate for Custer to have ordered Tom back to the Camp at that time. Either Varnum’s memory was bad, or he had a severe case of sleeplessness. In either event Varnum’s statements are suspect as to accuracy, and for good reason: And so may I add were Gray’s analysis of those events that he tried to use as evidence, and placing them severely out of context in creating the myths he himself founded, which simply was that 2nd trip to the Crows Nest that never occurred.
What about Girard’s misinterpretation of “someone moving the column”? The column may have started moving when all these senior people left, and Custer was angry at Tom and Calhoun &/or Cooke for leaving and inciting the movement of the column at that time. Again, Girard if questioned properly, may very well have remembered those events as Varnum had, but the Court didn’t see fit to follow up on the “exact wording" in Varnum and Girards statements. Had they done so, this business of a 2nd trip never would have surfaced.
Continued for Membership....
