What factors constitute a "Savage?"

[joewiggs]

During war, a great many acts of a horrific nature occur constituting "Mans' Inhumanity to Man. I will not belabor the forum with examples of the physical monstrosities men often perpetrate against his brothers. A mental handicap that tends to bring out the worst of us is the assumption that people who look, dress, and act different then we are, somehow, are naturally degenerative in nature.

For example, a white woman named Clara Blynn and her infant son Willie had been captured by the Cheyenne and Arapahoes. General Hazen was in the process of negotiating their release when Gen. Sheridan squashed the idea. His rationality for doing so?

"After having her husband & and friends murdered, and her own person subjected to the fearful bestiality of perhaps the whole tribe, it is mock humanity to secure what is left of her for the consideration of 5 ponies."

The mother and her son were subsequently discovered dead in a harsh and brutal fashion. Who were the savages? The monsters who killed a woman and a child and/or the General who refused to save them as the possibility of rape by Indians rendered the woman no longer human and worthy of aid?

[crazycanuck]

The savages were 1. Sheridan who was merciless( a character of savageness) in not helping the women and child and 2. The Indians( another characteristic of savageness for there uncivilized rape and murder of innocence and defenseless people) and 3. Hazen in being gutless and immoral(savageness) in not disobeying Sheridans orders. That was easy Joe.We all are savages some just more than others.

[crazycanuck]

"Say it ain't so Joe".

[crazycanuck]

Question. How many of Custers troops deserted between Cedar Coulee and lets say Luce Ridge ? Anybody know ? Did they end up on Reno Ridge ?
Thank-you.

[crazycanuck]

Question. Why did some Indians mutilate some of Custers soldiers to the point of being unrecognizable ? Thank-you.

[joewiggs]

Great question! I've always wondered why some of the soldiers were picked out for extreme mutilations while other were not. A lot of it is depended upon the circumstances of the kill. for example, Moving Robe Woman held a slight conversation with Dorman, in which she ignored his pleas for mercy, before his death. He was later discovered to have every atrocity imaginable perpetrated on his corpse. Tom Custer's head was smashed beyond identification in an obvious frenzy of overkill.

The answer? Women! Indian women who came across men who were still alive then they enacted a terrible revenge upon the soldiers live bodies. The intense anger, grief, and retribution was best served upon the soldiers who were still alive and able to feel the excruciating pain being placed on them. Where is the ultimate satisfaction in inflicting harm upon a cold corpse?

Soldiers placed upon their knees with their rumps in the air, riddled with arrows, certainly did not die that way. Shortly, after the battle when the threat of the Pony Soldiers were nullified, the women had opportunity and the time to select their unfortunate victims choosing those alive as the prime targets.

what prompted such cruelty? Think Chivington and Sand Creek were more Indian women and children were slaughtered and mutilated than warriors.

[crazycanuck]

I also read that before 1840's etc. the Indians respected the equal warrior frontiersman who had as good or better fighting and survival skills as the Indian thus there equals and thus a respected worthy opponent. After this time the frontiersman became the farmer,tinker, tailor,sailor soldier boy,a latter day metrosexual not worthy of Indian respect.But of course you make sense with Chivington,SandCreek, and may I add, "hell have no fury than women" p!$$@^ off.

[joewiggs]

Crazy, once again you have hit a home run. I can't remember my sources but, I too recall reading that the original respect the Indians held for the frontiersman was reduced to contempt for the post-Civil war soldier who possessed none of the martial abilities nor survival skills of their forefathers.

[joewiggs]

Jan 2, 2011 10:05:07 GMT -5 crazycanuck said:

Question. How many of Custers troops deserted between Cedar Coulee and lets say Luce Ridge ? Anybody know ? Did they end up on Reno Ridge ?
Thank-you.

Crazy, I don't know for sure but, the possibility of desertion between Cedar Coulee and Luce ridge is minuscule as designated line Sergeants rode in the rear to prevent such occurrences.

The exception was Thompson (and others) who inexplicably fell behind from the rest of the command. One theory is that this occurred as the troops ascended Sharpshooters ridge, several mounts began to lag and were expected to " catch-up" by the line Sergeants who did not want to be held up as they rushed ahead in the excitement of the pursuit.

[cinnamon]

Jan 2, 2011 12:53:39 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

The answer? Women! Indian women who came across men who were still alive then they enacted a terrible revenge upon the soldiers live bodies. The intense anger, grief, and retribution was best served upon the soldiers who were still alive and able to feel the excruciating pain being placed on them. Where is the ultimate satisfaction in inflicting harm upon a cold corpse?

what prompted such cruelty? Think Chivington and Sand Creek were more Indian women and children were slaughtered and mutilated than warriors.

Joe, for harsh horrible and despicable that Sand Creek was, it was equally a retaliation for something indians made. Second, the killing and mutilating soldiers, was also a way for indians to jeopardize the whites entering in the other life safe and happy, because they believed such wounds would have been on the soldiers bodies even in the other life - this was the reason they pierced Custer's ears etc. I consider this really evil: pursue a man in the other life and ruin his eternity...think about it...

[joewiggs]

Cinnamon, you are right. Many of the post death slashes perpetrated by the warriors were, just as you say,inflicted to hinder the soldiers from enjoying an after-life.

When you think about it, creating problems that last for eternity is especially cruel. Thank you for presenting the "Other side" of the picture.

[strange]

Where does Sheridan's remark of "bestiality" come from? Did the Indians make her have sex with animals or something? Did he regard the Indians as animals and thus charge her with bestiality for being likely raped by them?

A very odd remark from Sheridan.

War is hell and that is how it is. Sheridan was one of the fiercest of them all, he functioned similar to Sherman except that Sherman hated war and I'm sure Sheridan more or less relished it. Both were effective.

Its incidents like these that show exactly why Sheridan was surely the Patton of his day. Whenever he says something like this, there are hundreds of other people in charge who are immediately trying to plug his trap. Today, with the government's corruption and everything, some one may have likely bumped him off for speaking like he did and that was rumoured to have happened to Patton even (there's a screwy thing that happened where apparently even his ambulance was rammed off the road or something).

Strange

[crazycanuck]

Beliefs are choice people make, Indians or otherwise, if people get pleasure or hope, in believing someone is suffering in the after life, and they are the cause of that suffering, so what, doesn't make it true. Though I do think it is sick to make people suffer and even to think that you made them suffer in another life is sicker still and may I add scientifically absurd. But hey people belief in some crazy things and if the Indians we deriving pleasure from this believe then they are sick puppies.... bottom line ,that is what can happen to you, if you charge a village of thousands of armed warriors. Save the last dance er I mean bullet.

[crazycanuck]

switch believe and belief around a few times so it kinda makes sense ... thanks

[Cutter]

Well, it was a hunter's life.