What factors constitute a "Savage?"

[crazycanuck]

Slash and burn.

[crazycanuck]

Slash and burn.

[cinnamon]

Where does Sheridan's remark of "bestiality" come from?
Well strange, even brothers indians said that other indians made bestialities to captives. Dog Soldiers were especially experienced on that kind of things. I just says in exemple that they put a new baby born tied in front of his mother naked and tied, so that he could see her bosom and she could see his tears, and let them there until the child die in starvation. AND THIS WAS NOT RETALIATION This was just one of the practices they adopted on captives. Bestiality? Yes. This is not war. Wherever this happens it is bestiality and not war, if we mean bestiality as an act of inhuman cruelty, under no moral codes or human restreint.
Of course, I would have done everything in my power to save Mrs Blinn and I don't share Sheridan view, that made in my view him beast as the rapers.

[cinnamon]

and Crazy, I don't care if they are whites or red. To go after someone in his other life is sick and a "bestiality". Cut in pieces corpses or people dying is aswell. Insert arrows on the penis of a dying soldier is a bestiality. No matter who think or do that. It's true that bestialities happens in war,but they are largely condemned, and recognized as such, while happening at the hands of indians people is inclined to justify them. Indians were not sick puppies. Indians were warriors. remember however that Sitting Bull asked his men to don't touch the corpses, this to me means something important. It means that even if you're a warrior you have a "moral" code and you know the right and wrong. And this makes your actions more subject to judgement.

[joewiggs]

Jan 3, 2011 22:12:48 GMT -5 strange said:

Where does Sheridan's remark of "bestiality" come from? Did the Indians make her have sex with animals or something? Strange

Strange, as sad as it is to confirm the "perspective" of Sheridan, contemporaneous society of today must understand how the intense racism of yesteryear led to an incredible conclusion regarding sexual intercourse of "White" women with American Natives.

To do so (the use of force did not meditate the act) meant that the victim was no longer considered to be "Human." The woman no longer had a place in society because no white man would accept her as a companion, equal, nor human being once the act was completed. In a male dominated society, the fate of such a victim was extremely horrendous and one sided.

As outrageous as this philosophy seems it was the "standard" of the nineteenth century. In other words, sexual intercourse by the victim with a savage "In jun" regardless of the amount of force used, relegated the "victim" to the same status as the perpetrator. In is essence, the victim was no better than the perpetrator; a savage! Therefore, sex between the races was equivalent to a human engaging in intercourse with an animal.
Shocking isn't it?

Ironically, Mrs. Blynn, although treated roughly, was never subjugated to sexual contact with anyone. She and her son were murdered to keep them silent when the Indians who held them hostage were approached by the military.

They could have been saved but were not. Of all the events that occurred during this era I find this episode to be the most damming,
sorrowful, and disgraceful act of a Nation whose greatness should have prevented such a travesty against society.

[cinnamon]

Joe, "She and her son were murdered to keep them silent when the Indians who held them hostage were approached by the military", don't you think you says this in a too much cold manner? It seems you justify this act...You seems to see things a bit one sided here, in my opinion: indians are helding a woman and a child, human beings, trying to sell them for ponies. That's racist enough I guess.
We do not know if she wasn't raped, also. "Clara was shot though the forehead, her scalp completely removed, and her skull horribly crushed. Two year old Willie bore numerous marks of violence and had his head crushed by a blow against a tree." This is horrible enough, racist enough, inhuman enough to be alongsided with Sheridan.

[joewiggs]

I did not intent to project that impression and I apologize for doing so. What happened to these poor souls was horrible. The fact that efforts that being initiated by others to save them were prevented by Sheridan's' order is a sad commentary regarding the whole incident.

[cinnamon]

And that is true Joe: Custer was really deceived and desperated about the whole matter as he wrote to his wife.

[joewiggs]

Yes, he certainly was. I believe that Sheridan holds the responsibility for the decision he made and no other.

[joewiggs]

Jan 3, 2011 22:12:48 GMT -5 strange said:

Where does Sheridan's remark of "bestiality" come from? Did the Indians make her have sex with animals or something? Did he regard the Indians as animals and thus charge her with bestiality for being likely raped by them?

A very odd remark from Sheridan.

Guess what Strange, Sherman was referring to sexual intercourse (forced or consensual) between a "white" woman and an Indian, any Indian.

This philosophy was not personal to General Sherman alone, many persons of this era felt the same way. Women who found themselves in the unenviable situation of engaging in sex with an Indian were deemed by society as unworthy of recognition and were often ostracized and cast out.

Victimize once they were victimized again by those who held themselves as superior to the native American.

[joewiggs]

Savages come in all sizes, sex, and color. The little ones and women of the great village were more savage and revengeful that the warriors at the Little Big Horn. As well as:

"As a member of Gibbon's relief column, Private Homer Coon saw the Indians bodies dismembered and thrown on a brush fire by the infuriated Seventh Calvary man."

Eyewitness Sergeant George B. DuBois stated that the elderly (Sitting Bull) leader's body was mutilated. In a letter written to a friend three days later, DuBois wrote:

"The scenes around the camp were awful. I saw one [policeman] go up to old Bull and cut him across the face with an axe. One cut him with a knife till his own squaw didn't know him. The dead looked horribly cut and shot."

[joewiggs]

One of my personal hero's of the battle, Godfrey, is as capable as others -I guess- of atrocities!

"Captain Edward Godfrey, another veteran of the Little Big Horn, led a detail of between fifteen and twenty soldiers in pursuit. (refugees attempting to escape from the Wounded Knee episode)
Several miles from the battleground at a place called White Horse Creek, they came upon some Indians hiding in the bushes.

Godfrey suspects there might be women and children hiding in the bushes and called out, 'Hau, Kola' meaning 'Hello Friend." When there was no response , he ordered the soldiers to fire."

After hearing screams, Godfrey and another soldier went to investigate they found a woman and two small girls in "in their death struggles."

They also found a boy stretched out and a coat pulled over his head. When he moved the soldier shot him in the head.