a good question, maybe

[cinnamon]

What I was trying to ask to CC was this: Custer sent Martini to Benteen asking him to come quick. He didn't said where. As Custer was not the idiot that someone suppose him to be, that means Benteen knew where he had to come quick. But What's important is, in my opinion, That Custer ordered Martini to come back to him if it was safe and if not, to stay with the company. Well, Why the heck? If Benteen was supposed to join Custer, Martini would have been naturally back to Custer with Benteen. Am I wrong?
What if custer was asking Benteen not to come back, but just to come join Custer and Reno in the attack bringing the packs as it was a great village? This way the order of Custer take full sense.
Again, custer was not an idiot. If he was in need of cartridges he would have wait for it. It doesn't make sense to ask for cartridges and then attack without waiting that support needed. Even less if he would have been convinced to wipe out the village in a glimpse, as someone has said.

[whitebull]

I guess the problem with some folk is that they believe Custer was an idiot. I do not! As hot and humid as it was on that day, the closest elevation would have shown the dust trail of anyone of the units. Like you said, it is possible Benteen could have "come on" as soon as he got the note!

[stumblingbear]

I've never been able to understand What Benteen thought. Why was he there if not to fight?

[joewiggs]

Cinnamon, forgive me for taking so long to respond to your post. I believe the salient point you are making reference to is that Benteen was fully aware of specific "orders" that would result in his participation in this battle at a critical moment.

That moment may well have been a directive to support Reno on the left while Custer struck from the right, both being in concert with Reno's charge at the middle. That being the case, Benteen should not have needed a note to "Come On" and, in fact, should have been there!

If I am correct in my assumption of your perspective, you have a valid point which can not be solved at this point. In either case, I feel that Benteen should have done one or the other. let me know if I'm on the right track.

[cinnamon]

you know Joe, I find totally stupid to call for him and then attack. Imagine this: Me you, and tbw we're going to steal in a house. I say: "Well joe and tbw: tbw will strike the entrance door, you Joe, go on the left entrance to see if any of the inhabitants, that 3 people, escapes from there: I will come in from the back door". Tbw finds that in the house there are 30 people standing, and fighting him. I actually see too, from a right window that the house is full of people, then I send my friend stumblingbear to call you, Joe. "Hey, Stumblingbear, go and call for Joe, tell him to be quick, because the house is full of people ok?" At this point, isn't fool for me to go directly in the house? I call for you JOe to come and I don't wait for you? ISn't that stupid? Following what they says, Custer did so and was annihilated. But Custer was not stupid. So, if he did so, he had a good reason to, or, if not, he had in mind something else and did not do what we think he did. Maybe he just wanted to approach the river? Maybe as you said Benteen knew something more than what he said? Maybe, "Come on bring packs" was a statement for Benteen, to attack and bring the packs with him? Because he (Benteen) would have need them as the village was bigger than expected? Maybe the message was for Benteen and not related to Custer himself and Come on, ment just to take action from the point where Benteen was as They the Custer's command, saw the dust of Benteen and knew where he was? In the order to Martini lies the solution I guess: Custer ordered Martini to come back to him if it was safe and if not, to stay with the company. If Benteen was supposed to join Custer, Martini would have been naturally back to Custer with Benteen, so why tell Martini to stay with the company? Was Custer drunk? I don't think so.

[joewiggs]

Cinnamon, thank you for such an informative thread that should give others a reason to pause and reflect. Benteen's "orders" have always been the epicenter for controversy and speculation.
Of course Benteen is known for saying that he didn't have a clue as to what Custer intended him to do.

You are very correct, Custer was not drunk nor was he incompetent as some would have us to believe. Your scenario involving members of the forum was priceless and thought provoking. Great job! ;D

[stumblingbear]

Bravo Cinnamon! Sadly, CC did not slow down enough to understand what you were saying. I hope CC returns and open up conversation towards a mutual understanding.

[whitebull]

What I have trouble understanding are the people who shout and holler that Custer was an idiot who had nothing else to do but attack Indian villages and kill as many as possible. I ain't denying that he killed Indians but he was sent there. The government of the good ole USA ordered him to attack and kill.

He could have declined and faced a court martial. I reckon he decided not to.

[cinnamon]

indians did that too. They were warriors. He was a soldier.

[tbw]

Apr 30, 2011 11:27:00 GMT -5 cinnamon said:

What I was trying to ask to CC was this: Custer sent Martini to Benteen asking him to come quick. He didn't said where. As Custer was not the idiot that someone suppose him to be, that means Benteen knew where he had to come quick. But What's important is, in my opinion, That Custer ordered Martini to come back to him if it was safe and if not, to stay with the company. Well, Why the heck? If Benteen was supposed to join Custer, Martini would have been naturally back to Custer with Benteen. Am I wrong?
What if custer was asking Benteen not to come back, but just to come join Custer and Reno in the attack bringing the packs as it was a great village? This way the order of Custer take full sense.
Again, custer was not an idiot. If he was in need of cartridges he would have wait for it. It doesn't make sense to ask for cartridges and then attack without waiting that support needed. Even less if he would have been convinced to wipe out the village in a glimpse, as someone has said.

I've been waiting for CC to answer this thread, as I feel it very important that his comments be given full regard and respect. Something up to this point he most likely feels has not been given in full measure.

I can see both sides to this arguement, and both Cinnamon and CC I think have valid points to their contentions. And perhaps everyone, including myself are jumping to conclusions before hearing what could be some kind of compromise between the two positions and likely more true and what we think we know now.

I think a lot of this message business depended upon visibility and what was or even what wasn't known by the commanders on either end of it. Just for one example, among a couple of hundred more; Did either of the commanders see and know where the other was? And if the answer was yes, as it appeared to have been, would the last known position where Custer and his couple of hundred troops be the place for Benteen to go? Benteen denied at the COI that he or Reno knew where the other was, this if true, is an important part of this message business and seems to indicate that Benteen was supposed to go to (at the very least of our understanding) to Custer's last known position. Timing and location would also play an important part in determining where and when all this took place from beginning to conclusion which shouldn't have been over until Benteen attained that last known position. Did he? According to what cinnamon has deduced from this, the answer seems to be an unqualified, yes. Because Martin didn't go back indicated what? What is it we don't know and can't see because of the obscurity of time and those who didn't follow through at the COI for us to know for sure? What is apparent is that Martin didn't go back and wasn't questioned at the court about it, nor did he ever state in interviews the reasons why he didn't follow the order to return. What could it possibly have been to have prevented him from following the order, Benteen countermanding it or something else?


What if custer was asking Benteen not to come back, but just to come join Custer and Reno in the attack bringing the packs as it was a great village? This way the order of Custer take full sense.
Again, custer was not an idiot. If he was in need of cartridges he would have wait for it. It doesn't make sense to ask for cartridges and then attack without waiting that support needed. Even less if he would have been convinced to wipe out the village in a glimpse, as someone has said.

While it seems to make a lot of sense, and who knows, it could have been this way. But do remember that according to Benteen, neither he or Reno knew where each other was, and I'm not assuming Reno didn't know. Reno said himself that he expected his assistance to come from the rear. Had Benteen and his men been back there in that direction where they could have been spotted by Reno, why didn't he ever acknowledge it? The order through Martin seems fairly clear here in its intent. And Kanipe's ride also must be used in this to determine the exact nature of the pacs and what was expected from that source as well. Once again, the very nature of Kanipe's orders seems to show the expectations from that source alone. The "if you see Benteen" must be accounted for in full here. What "if" Kanipe hadn't seen Benteen? This clearly was the inference, this message was as Benteen himself said, "for the pack train". Now in this isolated instance, what exactly did the pack train commanders know? Did they know where Reno was? If Benteen didn't know, no one could or even should expect the pack train commanders to know either, and once again the 'last known position' should have been where they should have sent the pacs to. Did they at that time do this?

If Custer had waited, it might have actually turned out better than it did, and here cinnamon is most likely correct on this. But once again, what did or didn't Custer know that led him on instead of waiting? The ever classic comment, [paraphrased] "We'll go down and make a crossing and finish up here and go home to our station" and their concurrent statements about where the warriors could have been, buffalo hunting, places his further actions in proper perspective. This along with what Martin reported also further corroborates the reason why Custer didn't wait, the ever proverbial "empty (devoid of warriors) village". If Custer was going to attack the thing it would have been then and there at that time and not when it was full of angry, blood thirsty warriors trying to defend their families. It's always been assumed that whatever he observed from the heights, it didn't scare him, undaunted he went forward, actually it wasn't this at all, there were no warriors to be seen that could have daunted or scared him. Two vastly different things, that in reality explains it a lot better than here-to-fore, and if he had waited for the ammo, which at the time they didn't need to take the "empty village", but possibly would if the warriors returned while they were ravaging the it, places things in a proper perspective. In other words, not knowing where the warriors were, could have placed both Benteen and the pack train in great peril if the warriors were behind them, like over in the Tullochs area buffalo hunting, where in fact some of them had been seen from the Crows Nest doing that very thing, and was the most likely reason Custer ordered both of those columns into hurry mode.

So, while it seems silly or stupid for Custer to have gone further without the ammo, in spite of 'what actually happened in hindsight', I think if one carefully weighs the evidence, it might actually explain the situation to our better understanding.

[cinnamon]

You know, it could be that Custer was not out of amunition, but Benteen would have needed them. Or, simply, Benteen had to report to custer bringing the packs. It seems to me still silly to call for someone and then go away without telling him where you are. Boston saw Reno retreating, and met martin on his way to Custer, so Custer must be aware of what reno was doing from Boston's account and so his plan needed new oxygen to breath. I think Benteen was called in action and he had to act quickly. Someone said Custer led always the charges, but this is true with his civil war records not so much on the plains; at Washita in fact, he took a high ground position to direct the operations.

[stumblingbear]

Jun 24, 2011 14:37:46 GMT -5 cinnamon said:

You know, it could be that Custer was not out of ammunition, but Benteen would have needed them. Or, simply, Benteen had to report to Custer bringing the packs. It seems to me still silly to call for someone and then go away without telling him where you are. Boston saw Reno retreating, and met martin on his way to Custer, so Custer must be aware of what reno was doing from Boston's account and so his plan needed new oxygen to breath. I think Benteen was called in action and he had to act quickly. Someone said Custer led always the charges, but this is true with his civil war records not so much on the plains; at Washita in fact, he took a high ground position to direct the operations.

Cinnamon, I'm not sure but I think Custer did go in with his men at the Washita. I do understand your point thought, the Custer of the civil war evolved and changed during the Indian wars.

[cinnamon]

Ben Clark states that Custer rode straight to a little knoll that overlooked the village on the south and from that point issued many of his orders. On this knoll stands the brown marker erected by Captain Scott. Barde's map indicates that Custer occupied a point beneath the high embankment in the northwest quarter of section 12 as his headquarters.

[stumblingbear]

I did not know that! Thank you for setting the the record straight. Your point is certainly made. Custer was not, there at least, wrapped up in a charging mode like others have made him out to be! Again, thank you.