civil war

[joewiggs]

Ironically, the end of the Civil War precipitated and, led indirectly to the demise of Custer and his command. Let me explain, upon the completion of the War between the States, the Federal Army was reduced to a mere shadow of itself. a great many soldiers opted to return to their previous lives that were so totally interrupted at the behest of war. With the exception of a significantly smaller "Officer Class", a substantial amount of soldiers who remained where, pretty much so, the dregs of society. this theory is exemplified by the ridiculous amount of dissertations whenever a new gold mine was discovered and the, generally, uncouthness of the post war soldier. Did I fail to mention the new recruits who were evading the "Law", running from young, pregnant wives and, foreigner new to the Country who could not find employment elsewhere?

Poorly trained, non-nationalistic, and prone to alcoholic consumption, the sheer boredom of frontier duty being the prominent cause, the die was cast. These where the men (with exceptions of course) who met the mighty Sioux on that auspicious day. The Sioux who learned to hunt, defend the tribe, and live a vigorous healthy lifestyle from birth. Furious warriors against young, ill-trained, boozing, smoking, physically diminutive in comparison, societal out-casts. The odds of this battle were determined before the first shot was fired.

Finally, even Benteen realized that the Warriors had all the motivation that was necessary to fight their finest battle; their homes, loved ones, and their lives as they knew that many Indians would be slaughtered had they not done so.

[joewiggs]

The more I think about it the more it appears, to me, that there were two Custer's. He of the Civil War fame, loved and adored by his troops and, "Old Iron Butt" the Indian fighter who was despised by quite a few persons.

Perhaps a reason for the two diametrically opposed opinions may be found in the demeanor of the "Boy general" during the war and the 35 year old "martinet" who chased the Plains Indians from one end of the country to the next.

The following is what Pvt. Austin Andrews had to say about his ex-commander after his death in Montana:

"The administration was led through a pack of of worthless, jealous officers, to heap insult after insult upon the brave Custer, and I now say, his blood be upon their heads. They murdered him, with Indian bullets."

Believe me, Austin was not the only soldier who felt so passionately about the General. Time forbids me from listing them all.

What needs to be understood that hate dashing, brave cavalier was in love with life and appreciated the loyalty and hero-worship he received from his men during the war.

The Custer of the Plains was a balding shadow of his former self desperate to remove the stain of presidential censorship.
Two different psyches from one man at different times explain much of the love/hate perspectives by his followers.

[whitebull]

It seems to me that when ever anyone shows a particular talent for anything, someone else gets jealous and finds fault with that person.

When I read or hear of people who claim that Custer was a saint or a idiot, I know from the jump that they are both wrong. No man living is either! Anyone who claims either side is only showing their own personal bias, not facts.

[stumblingbear]

What about being in the middle. Is it wrong to believe that no one is all bad or all good?

[Cutter]

Nope, that's how it shakes out most of the time, some good, and some bad all rolled into on person.

[joewiggs]

I suspect that the extent of the "goodness" or the "badness" makes the difference. As well as the manifestation of the "bad" acts.

[whitebull]

When you sit down and really look at the facts and situations that led to the battle and its end, you come to a conclusion that shakes you up a bit. The conclusion for me is that there were so many people responsible for the Custer battle that it simply blows your mind!

Custer, Benteen, Crazy Horse, Reno, Sitting Bull were all pawns in a play in which they had no control. A play where the most important factor was greed and racial disparity. The Indians had something the people of the U.S. wanted and the fact that they were only "Indians" made it okay to take what they had from them.

When they fought to hold on to what they felt was theirs, the freedom to hunt and live as they pleased, they were killed. When they fought back they were called savages.

Custer was ordered to attack by men who were his bosses. he worked under plans made up by these men. When he didn't quite get it right, he got stuck with the whole ball of wax!

[joewiggs]

Understand your point explicitly White bull and you are correct. However, the culpability of individuals who started the framework that eventually evolved into Custer's Last Stand is not the primary issues being discussed here.

During the actual battle, did Custer perform as anticipated or did he not? The same holds true for Reno and other participants in the battle. It is these critical issues that are thoroughly being perused in hopes of solving and/or rationalizing the battle sequences as they occurred and the results of those actions..

[stumblingbear]

Moving On:

The American Civil War battle of Antietam took place near Sharpsburg, Maryland, on September 17, 1862. Twenty-three thousand men were killed or wounded. it was the bloodiest single battle day of battle in the history of America. it is reported that ghosts of dead soldiers greet visitors to the site this very day.

George B. McClellan, commander of the federal Army of the Potomac, had yet to win a victory for the Union because of his cautious ways of doing battle. Because of this, General Robert E. Lee was determined to occupy Northern territory protected by McClellan and meet him head on.

However, lee's luck was a bout to run out. A copy of Lee's field orders had been lost but was soon recovered by a group of Union soldiers spotted a small package laying on the ground. In side the package was three cigars wrapped in paper. This paper was, actually, Lee's field order's. Realizing the value of the papers, McClellan set out to meet Lee.

When the two sides came face to face on at 5 am on the 17th, both generals were determined to slug it out and change the course of the war. The battle was fierce and terrible. By late afternoon thousands of men on both sides were dead. At its end, both sides claimed victory even though the battle was a draw.

The course of history was changed though. because Lee failed to win a clear victory, Great Britain postponed its official recognition of the Confederate state.

[whitebull]

I never knew this! Boy, can you imagine what could have happened if the British had joined in on the side of the south? There would be a good chance that the South could have had enough help to make it possible for the South to pull away from the North permanently!

Then what would happen? Remember "Together we stand, divided we fall?"

[whitebull]

Any body got any ideas?

[joewiggs]

WB, I have never had a reason to dwell on such a possibility as I have never known that Britain ever entertained such an action. Now that the subject has been brought up by Stumblingbear, I must say that this topic is certainly an interesting subject for the forum to discuss. Hindsight being twenty/twenty, the possibility of such an occurence is more than plausible!

Could the North have defeated the combined forces of the South and the British. Imagine Britain supplying the South with Industrial goods that they (the South) were short of and troops as well? Imagine the price the South would have paid for such assistance?

I'm going to do a little research and, quickly add my "two cents" to this discussion. Stumblinbear thanks for submitting such an interesting topic for the forum!

[strange]

Jun 22, 2013 20:35:31 GMT -5 whitebull said:

I never knew this! Boy, can you imagine what could have happened if the British had joined in on the side of the south? There would be a good chance that the South could have had enough help to make it possible for the South to pull away from the North permanently!

Then what would happen? Remember "Together we stand, divided we fall?"

Judah benjamin was begging them for their assistance but the English saw slaves and niet.

[stumblingbear]

Strange, I've never heard about this before, it sounds interesting. Could you referece me to more information like this? I sure would like to hear more!