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Post by joewiggs on Mar 11, 2012 11:01:42 GMT -5
For those who contemplate that the theory that the military sacrificed Custer by using him as a scapegoat was unfounded and impossible, please consider the following:
"The military establishment did not object to Reno's excoriation of Custer; it had its own reasons for casting blame on a dead man. The calamitous results of the campaign -lauded forces of two of the country's top Indian fighters checked or defeated within the space of eight days, leaving Cook and Terry paralyzed for a month or more while they awaited orders and reinforcements. - could prove highly detrimental to the army.
Every year the military's appropriations bill faced intense debate before it was approved, often after heavy budget cutting. Six days before the battle, the Democratic House had voted for a significant reduction in the army's numbers and budget.
A nation still recovering from the grievous losses of the Civil War was not persuaded of the necessity of a standing army of any size.
Any further light cast upon the the army's dirty linen - particularly its disastrous management at the highest levels of the recent campaign - could mean even more severe cuts. Far better to blame as much as possible a single man, a lighting rod officer such as Custer, notoriously for his his "attack first"reputation."A Terrible Glory" Page 326
The so called military management could not loose in this game of propaganda. If Custer won they would receive the Lion's share of the glory while Custer would receive a "bone" in the form of a long desired promotion. If Custer loss...well you already know what occurred.
That is why Reno, Benteen, and Wallace were allowed (if not encouraged) to sling the tremendous amount of mud at Custer with complete abandonment.
Reno was attempting to save what little still remained of his sordid military career;
Benteen had always despised Custer and was more than chagrined at the accusations that he did not obey his orders;
Wallace was an up and coming officer who was convinced (by unknown persons) that the sacrifice of Custer's reputation was a small price for to pay to succor the honor of his beloved army.
As a result, the battle still rages back and forth among the students of this historical event. A battle that was given birth by these very same lies.
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Post by joewiggs on Mar 30, 2012 17:23:52 GMT -5
In addition, I have perused many statements uttered by participants who flatly stated that Reno did the best think possible by abandoning the timber;thereby saving the lives of everyone there. Convinced that the timber was a far more credible sanctuary than the "bluffs" Reno fled to, I simply could not understand the rationale behind such a philosophy.
I have since experienced an epiphany! Reno's leadership was so poor, unfathomable, and completely bizarre that staying in the timber, under his leadership, was a fatal venture. Ironically, his leaving as he did saved lives. Staying with him would have meant death to everyone.
The rationale behind this philosophy is this:American militaristic success has been and always will be predicated on "command leadershipand structure." Soldiers are trained to look toward the superior officer for direction in accomplishing previously trained,tactical movements predicated upon specific and sometimes general situations.
Unlike the aboriginal warrior whose battle affords are highly individualistic and predicated on opportunity, military efforts are unified and with specific purpose unless there is a total break down in the command structure when carried out correctly.
Reno's efforts were a dismal failure!
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Post by stumblingbear on Apr 8, 2012 17:15:36 GMT -5
I found this in "On The Little Big Horn W. Camp" on page 242. I thought it was really interesting because a lot of people (for Custer and against) seem to feel that he disobeyed his orders from General Terry and attacked the village to soon. Mr. Camp seemed to disagree:
"About the charge that Custer disobeyed orders.
really, Custer obeyed Terry's order too faithfully. the orders were given to Benteen on June 25 show clearly enough that it was with regard to the letter of
terry's order Custer divided his command up the way he did. As to meeting Terry at the mouth of [the]Little Big horn on June 26, Godfrey calls attention to the fact that Custer was rationed to July 5."
What do you all think?
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Post by joewiggs on Apr 27, 2012 16:18:47 GMT -5
Stumbingbear I think that a majority of people suspect that although Custer was not a rash and foolish person he, nevertheless, is responsible for the tragic end that occurred. This incorrect premise starts with the size of the village and the number of occupants within the village. For too long an impression of a village so large and containing such a huge number of warriors was impossible to defeat and should not have been attempted. Anyone who would attempt such a feat had to be, therefore, crazy. Despite relatively recent tomes by people like Gray, Fox, Micho, and Hardorff that show conclusive evidence that the size of the village and warriors were greatly exaggerated, the myth initiated by Benteen and others continue to linger on. Unfortunately, we sometimes tend to not want to be bothered by "facts."  |
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Post by whitebull on Apr 27, 2012 20:10:56 GMT -5
I just don't understand it. If what you say is true then Benteen is guilty of committing a crime! I don't git how a good soldier could do such a thing! Where did you get this information please. I'd like to read it for myself. No offense to you Joe, I just need to gander the truth with own eyeballs!
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Post by tbw on Apr 28, 2012 7:46:30 GMT -5
I just don't understand it. If what you say is true then Benteen is guilty of committing a crime! I don't git how a good soldier could do such a thing! Where did you get this information please. I'd like to read it for myself. No offense to you Joe, I just need to gander the truth with own eyeballs! The proof there would be in the pudding. But what muddies the water for that proof is the triage mess of information that one has to sort through to convict him. One of the things he said himself was that HE disobeyed his own orders when he turned around on his mission "left", this at the COI. Of course Benteen was immune to anything he said, even against himself at the COI. It wasn't him under review, and sadly so, as Whittaker unwittingly let the buffoon off the hook as he was initially scheduled for his own lengthy list of charges at that court, but at some point just prior dropped those charges. More's the pity as had he so confessed at his own court, I'm quite sure such an admission alone would have been enough to have at the very least would have caused his dishonorable discharge if not something more. |
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Post by joewiggs on Apr 28, 2012 10:20:49 GMT -5
T.B.W. has hit the proverbial "nail" right on the head. Whitebull, compare Benteen's initial, official report and letter's to his wife (written before he began to receive criticism for his part in the battle) with his testimony at the inquiry and you will find your answer. Remember, I read the same articles many times before my mind open itself and,despite Benteen's prowess as a soldier, realized that this was a man whose vindictiveness actually reached across Custer's grave! Why I find issue with his comments is because Benteen has done much to "muddies the water" " of history as we now perceive it! |
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Post by whitebull on Apr 28, 2012 14:03:04 GMT -5
I just don't understand it. If what you say is true then Benteen is guilty of committing a crime! I don't git how a good soldier could do such a thing! Where did you get this information please. I'd like to read it for myself. No offense to you Joe, I just need to gander the truth with own eyeballs! The proof there would be in the pudding. But what muddies the water for that proof is the triage mess of information that one has to sort through to convict him. One of the things he said himself was that HE disobeyed his own orders when he turned around on his mission "left", this at the COI. Of course Benteen was immune to anything he said, even against himself at the COI. It wasn't him under review, and sadly so, as Whittaker unwittingly let the buffoon off the hook as he was initially scheduled for his own lengthy list of charges at that court, but at some point just prior dropped those charges. More's the pity as had he so confessed at his own court, I'm quite sure such an admission alone would have been enough to have at the very least would have caused his dishonorable discharge if not something more. Now this is amazing! Benteen does all of this and still gets off the hook! If you go on the other forum and say something bad about Benteen them folks will crucify you! I'm gonna do like Joe says and remember to keep my eyes and mind open! |
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Post by stumblingbear on Apr 29, 2012 15:25:52 GMT -5
Actually Whitebull, Benteen's life was one of a lot of disappointment and pain. Several of his children died when young, he never achieved the rank he thought he deserved, and his dislike of Custer bugged him to the end of his life. No, he didn't get away with much after all.
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Post by whitebull on May 5, 2012 19:15:32 GMT -5
I see what you mean but I think that it is wrong to pour pain on other people just because you are feeling pain yourself. Benteen was a great soldier and a whole lot of people admired him I am sure. What I don't understand is how long does he plan on hating Custer? He hated him in life and he hated him in death. That's a whole lot of hate!  |
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Post by joewiggs on May 6, 2012 9:41:35 GMT -5
In all of my readings about Benteen all references to his bravery and ability to lead men in combat were extradinary. Had he possessed a more flamboyant character he may have exceeded the rank achieved during the Civil War.
However, I do not recall reading anything about him that insiuated that he was ever regarded as a "nice" man.
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Post by whitebull on May 18, 2012 19:28:47 GMT -5
That's a shame! that much hate must have been heavy on the man's shoulders. If you hate that much the hate will eventually eat your innards until nothing is left!  |
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Post by stumblingbear on May 19, 2012 18:39:14 GMT -5
Benteen eventually made the rank of Major but the promotion meant that he would be in command of a black troop. This was a thing that he did not care for at all. Also, his drinking became more of a problem and he eventually received a court martial and drummed out of the Army.
He never forgot his dislike for Custer and most of the officers who worked with. I think he was one of those rare creatures who needed anger to motivate him to accomplish things in life. Never happy with himself he could not be happy with others who did not meet his personal standards. What these standards could be heaven knows.
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Post by strange on May 19, 2012 20:41:33 GMT -5
Benteen eventually made the rank of Major but the promotion meant that he would be in command of a black troop. This was a thing that he did not care for at all. Also, his drinking became more of a problem and he eventually received a court martial and drummed out of the Army. He never forgot his dislike for Custer and most of the officers who worked with. I think he was one of those rare creatures who needed anger to motivate him to accomplish things in life. Never happy with himself he could not be happy with others who did not meet his personal standards. What these standards could be heaven knows. I think he also just enjoyed pressing people's nerves and giving them snide for his own amusement. Possibly also, he may have bitched about people as a way of attempting to promote himself (as everyone sorta does.). Along the way, he probably stopped caring about where he was promoted and then likely just made a full pastime out of slander. |
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Post by joewiggs on Jun 23, 2012 18:06:18 GMT -5
Dr. Strange I think you hit the nail on the head! It's sad that a man allowed an ingrained vindictiveness control so much of his life. He appeared to like no one with higher or equal rank as evident in his letters to Goldin. Come to think of it, he could be unsettling with junior rank as well.
Perhaps the terrible lost of his children,an outstanding war record (recommended for a brevet general), and a reputation for coolness under fire only to be outdone in recognition by a young upstart like Custer;a lump in his throat that he just could not swallow comfortable.
Always a drinker, toward the end of his career it got out of hand resulting in a Court martial.
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