What are We Like?

[tbw]

Change isn't always a good thing. This as was evidenced by the change in Christs birth records. And there are those with political influence who would argue against such a notion that change isn't always a good thing. Of course there are those where such words proclaimed, by their very nature, would be fighting words by just their inference alone. In fact these two subjects alone are the most controversial of subjects to explore, faith and politics. And it goes to the very heart of the matter here on boards like this one, where each person has strong opinions and notions about what happened in a battle of a war that happened well over 135 years or so ago. Those opinions and notions are for the most part backed up by little else than faith, and believe it or not, politics. Then comes the breakdown of right and wrong where there isn't supposed to be any grey lines. What we have are a hell of a lot of chiefs and very few Indians. And that pecking order is damn thin according to those who think they are near the top of the heap because of their superior experience and intellect where they feel it automatically grants them the right to be there. Like most religions and parties of political persuasion, they feel it incumbent upon themselves to spread the good news of their campaign rhetoric. Quite naturally one supposes as with any person of good faith or honest political ambitions for greater glory than good, at least as long as it serves their interest and ambitions. One supposes that some in their zeal can go into greater detail and it would be a good gesture to note the significance of their efforts. But it should be noted that what they miss or dismiss out of their dispassionate reasoning is the bigger and more important facts that has eluded their attention. It is the same thing that plagues all of us, and no one is spared these most human of characteristics, not even those who consider themselves at the top and immune to their effects.

Lastly....I've witnessed, as most of you have, the pecking order mentioned above in action on boards like this more times than I'd like to admit, and I've even been a part of such a mob rule in the past, sadly so, much to my great reluctance to admit, but admit it I must and will. We all have principles, which we hold fast to, and when those principles are infringed upon in a personal way, so much so that it touches our very lives, we fight back, it is just natural, expected and something that will be done. But if it isn't doing that, there isn't any reason to berate anyone else for their opinion.(PERIOD) I don't care whether you think you're the King or Queen of the LBH, and top know it all professor of the same, and one day will be crowned the one who found that Custer went and did this and Benteen should have done that Or Reno had to have done this. Bottom line is "I don't care. Don't give a rats behind!" AND Such nonsense "doesn't matter to me." Because? Because you, whoever you are, nor anyone else isn't going to ever find it. It hasn't been done in a 135 years. It hasn't been done in the 15 to 20 years or so of the computer age, and it isn't going to happen to you, me or anyone else. There is enough contrary information and evidence out there to refute anyone's claim to fame and glory, whether it be by hook, crook, book or timepiece. And no one is ever going to change that, no one.

Sorry for the rant here. But you wanted to know what I'm like. This is one of my pet peeves about the LBH. There are no KNOW-IT-ALLS when it comes to this subject. And if they think they are one, then I'd say they are a smart ass, not a scholar. Because 99% of those who feel they know-it-all have the smart assed attitude and not the mannerisms of someone who really knew what they were talking about, and didn't have to defend their words with such barbarity as I've personally witnessed. If their glorious research is so god damned right, then they shouldn't have to defend it with an AK-47 strapped to their hip, a belt of grenades slung over their shoulder and an IED or two in their back pack. And this ain't no frack'n war zone, in fact, no where on the internet is.

[whitebull]

You are serious about the things you feel and that is a good quality to have. Because you are serious I see that the members here are considerate of other people and willing to listen. Also a good thing!

I have visited other forums and don't plan on going back because of one or two people who think its o.k. to say crude remarks to others because they just don't agree with the poster.

I have learned a lot here and I will keep on learning because I want to share things with others like myself. Than you!

[stumblingbear]

I also agree 100%! This is my first forum as well and I have been a visitor on several others and was appalled at what I read.
I believe I know what other forum you are talking about Whitebull and you are right on target!

T.B.W., I believe your post speaks for all of us "Little" people who beginners in this topic who want to learn more and more. you did not "rant" you spoke the truth and we appreciate what you do! Please keep up the good work and feel free to "rant" whenever you feel like it!

[tbw]

Apr 28, 2012 16:11:37 GMT -5 stumblingbear said:

I also agree 100%! This is my first forum as well and I have been a visitor on several others and was appalled at what I read.
I believe I know what other forum you are talking about Whitebull and you are right on target!

T.B.W., I believe your post speaks for all of us "Little" people who beginners in this topic who want to learn more and more. you did not "rant" you spoke the truth and we appreciate what you do! Please keep up the good work and feel free to "rant" whenever you feel like it!

Aw shucks, your just a want'n to know more about me.

There are way too many stressors placed upon the importance of understanding all of these events in context to time. Without knowing where certain events took place, distorted and different views have been and continue to be treated as fact. Very little that was true can be gleaned from timing works, John Gray's work is proof positive of that effort. The difference between just a hundred yards can and has produced disastrous results to our understanding of these events. And multiples of that just magnify that problem exponentially into the realms of Rod Sterlings works. This "where" factor is something that continues to give me the heevie jeevies when someone starts bantering about time-motion studies. To this day there is not one person who can state where and when Capt. Benteen departed the regiment on his mission to the "left". Oh sure there are those who said this and that and thus and therefore it should be... yada yada yada. BUT, and its one hellova big one, but no matter how one slices and dices that ride it still to this day can't be discerned with any degree of accuracy. And, no matter what anyone says "left" isn't a direction unless a specific address is made to a direction at the time, there wasn't, not even left of the trail as so many assume to this day. Also with Custer's battalion, there just isn't much to go on after he departs from Reno except those so called sightings of ahem, "Him" really?, or his men atop those bluffs. Again, in most cases there wasn't a "where" stated, and when there was, it was about 3 years later at the RCOI, and they appear anywhere from Reno HIll to well past Weir Peak, a distance well over two miles in length. Some of these men testifying that they saw them at those very places, two miles apart at the same time or within about 4 to 5 minutes of each other, a gait rate of about 24 mph. Sure they could have gone that fast that far, but did Custer really turn them loose here? What is impossible is positively identifying an individual that far away on the horizon, don't believe me, try it. Yet even with all this evidence, we still have those today still supporting Gray's lazy timeline for Custer and his battalion going down the right bank, about 4 to 6 mph, depending upon whether or not you believe he was really really interesting in what was happening to Reno or not. It really isn't an oxymoron here, but there are those who'd argue this till hell froze over. Look, its real simple, you don't have to be a real honest to goodness combat vet to spot a phony expert wanna-be. If it walks like a duck, acts like a duck, quacks like a duck, there's a pretty damn good chance its a damn duck. Fabrications are real easy to spot, and every time-motion study I've ever seen from Gray to Michno on, the natural human tendency is there to insert into the narrative something they feel important, and just like any theory, it is sure to crash like a fragile deck of stacked cards. "Where"? is the question, not when. Because 'when' is nothing without 'where' something someone forgot to tell those who wandered around the desert blind and became snake bit.

[joewiggs]

There are so many "kernels of truth" to shift through in our efforts to discern what actually happened in the battle that, simply put, are impossible to know factually. We can not re-create past circumstances,replay the results, and end up with an exact duplicate of the former event(s).

Why? The human condition calls for a myriad of different results from the same actions although occurring under very similar circumstances. In other words, no matter how many times you perform the same act the results will be slightly varied. The bigger the action (battle) the more variance in the results.

What we are capable of doing in our quest for answers is to review the written record of what occurred in an unbiased manner, imbue the results with a large dose of common sense, and peruse the motivation for each participant's recollection and remarks with their actual "performance" in the battle.

Men who react to stress poorly will invariable place responsibility for that personal performance on non-personal agendas.

I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding a portion of Gray's insistence on being too minute in some areas (a mounts gate for example) but, I am thoroughly impressed with his resurrection of Curley's reputation from "liar" to a frightened 17 year old boy whose anguish of what he experienced was morphed into a tome of irrational, misinterpretation of what he actually spoke.

In the last decade, the competent examination of the debilitating mental condition of the white men under the stress of combat, particularly close encounters, often result in a complex mixture of "memories" that are as confusing and contradictory as that of the Native American who has been unilaterally accused of incoherent testimony.

Yet, unfortunately, there are many who assimilate white testimony with far more tenacity and relevance than testimony of the Native American.

Recently, a member of another forum insisted that "Indians" were incapable of rendering testimony as testimony could only be rendered in a Court of Law!? If that were true than the testimony of Moses would have never made it into the Bible.

it is that type of ethnocentric thinking that has done so much to stall the truth of the battle from coming forth.

[tbw]

Joe,

I understand and respect the reasons for your post. And i assure you the following doesn't mean to place what you believe in jeopardy of ridicule by me. The following doesn't do that.

What I agree with you on is the measure by which we all should read the accounts of those Indians who spoke about their actions on the LBH that day. There are some out there who say that this isn't primary source material. And to understand what they are trying to convey, is they say not even Camp's interviews should be considered the same. Now for the the reasons behind their folly. It comes down to, sadly enough, what some would call "the spin" where such interviews and like material was distorted to their way of thinking and likely prone to exaggeration, they claimed a greater role than the what the myths of history should condone. Interesting way to put it isn't it? So which way should we be thinking? Surely not the way you or I have been, free lance, we'll see.

What can be done about this? Well you have stated that we should essentially try to corroborate what they said through a reasonably logical assessment of its value. Basically put what one or another Indian also said of that same event. Problem here is not timing or when, it's where! And we're not talking about some general area, but a pinpoint place accurate enough to understand things in that context, because what one Indian described as a similar event might not have taken place at the same place as what some other Indian observed, it is believe it or not as simple as that. Otherwise what we have here is the difference between how one person differently perceives that they think was that same event, which in reality might have been and likely was separate events at different locations on the battlefield there just isn't any way of placing this into a discernible contextual pattern enough to corroborate any of it in any way that makes any sense. As an example the Indians stated that Custer after failing to gain entry at one of the fords withdrew back up on a ridge, some of them claimed they were there for about 20 minutes or so. True or not? Some might say this wasn't in Custer's nature, and they'd probably be right, but what if what Curley saw and other hostile Indians said was true, that Custer was wounded when they tried to cross the river. Would that 20 minute delay have been possible? In short talking about any of what went on "when" and "Where" on Custer's battlefield becomes ever increasingly unsupportable because of the nature of the evidence we today have. Its like the flow of battle on that same field. Which way did the battle flow, from the S/SE to the N/NW or the other way around? There just isn't enough physical evidence in the "where" aspect of that battle to know where any of them were talking about. And true enough Camp didn't help one bit, but as you've said before, dismissing everything he did write would be like throwing out the baby with the bath water, or what some self proclaimed historians and researches do, throw out most of the evidence to make it fit their pet theory.

[joewiggs]

Agreed! The freedom to express yourself is a gift to be appreciated and enjoyed! I have never doubted nor ever will your commitment to such an ideal!

[tbw]

Apr 29, 2012 15:05:41 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

Agreed! The freedom to express yourself is a gift to be appreciated and enjoyed! I have never doubted nor ever will your commitment to such an ideal!

Well I normally don't go around tooting my own horn here or there, but I'd say from what I've seen at other places we do just fine here. There aren't any people acting like know it alls, and I do use that term "acting" seriously here, because there is a hellova lot of difference between acting like you know something and actually knowing it. There's just to many unknowns in this battle for someone to know it all, to many variables in the events for someone to know it all, and even more importantly, in light of attempts to emulate and improve upon someone else's work, namely Gray's, I think I've shown the follies, foibles and stupidities of such attempts beyond what Gray did attempt. And as has been seen failed in those attempts at solving a 130 year old mystery while trying to mix time-motion with his own biases and prejudices. Until someone can distinguish between the two, and until someone who attempts such a thing realizes from the beginning, that most if not some where's will always be unknown, it will be an imperfect work and a flawed attempt from the outset. I think Gray understood this, and I don't think he personally ever meant his work to be the definitive answer for anything. And you can tell from his humble works, between his first campaign at trying and the last, and the plans for the next, that this was most certainly true.

[joewiggs]

I have asked myself a thousand times why, why do people like ourselves become so involved in this historical event that pales in comparison with other significant battles?

Why did you (T.B.W.)spent so much of your precious time and utilized such herculean efforts to develop a web-site that is user friendly and accepts every one on a common ground; as adults. Don't misunderstand me, I am eternally grateful to you for doing so.

The vicious slander, cowardly attacks, and negative personalization that was allowed on other boards were beyond rationality. A few individuals believed that they had the 'truth" rapped up and any who dared to disagree with them were mutilated!

Of course, in my random tirade I have, somehow, managed to delay answering the original question I posted;Why!

I really can't say. Somehow I feel that in some way I may have experienced a little of what those men (White and Native American) may have felt while engaged in this battle;fear and consternation on an insurmountable scale. Most of us at one time or another have traveled that fearsome road. Sometimes when I read I also feel the emotion these men may have experienced as they became involved in a killing frenzy that was incredible.

I don't know why. How about you?

[tbw]

May 6, 2012 17:01:53 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

I have asked myself a thousand times why, why do people like ourselves become so involved in this historical event that pales in comparison with other significant battles?

Why did you (T.B.W.)spent so much of your precious time and utilized such herculean efforts to develop a web-site that is user friendly and accepts every one on a common ground; as adults. Don't misunderstand me, I am eternally grateful to you for doing so.

The vicious slander, cowardly attacks, and negative personalization that was allowed on other boards were beyond rationality. A few individuals believed that they had the 'truth" rapped up and any who dared to disagree with them were mutilated!

Of course, in my random tirade I have, somehow, managed to delay answering the original question I posted;Why!

I really can't say. Somehow I feel that in some way I may have experienced a little of what those men (White and Native American) may have felt while engaged in this battle;fear and consternation on an insurmountable scale. Most of us at one time or another have traveled that fearsome road. Sometimes when I read I also feel the emotion these men may have experienced as they became involved in a killing frenzy that was incredible.

I don't know why. How about you?

Its the solving of the unsolvable. The finding of the lost. The humble solving of a riddle, a mystery and not asking anything in return. It is, in the short eyesight of man, the quest for fame, fortune and adoration, with the ultimate prize being all three.

To say that agenda's doesn't have something to do with your answer, would be like saying supposed experts in this field have no prejudices, bias or dislikes. What opinion of any value is it, no matter who the expert speaker is, when only their ascertainable facts are judged competent, while others looked down upon judged worse than worthless when based on discernible facts the experts have overlooked, threw away and/or judged as lies. If any are looking for decency, they'd best look in the mirror I was talking about in one of these last few posts, because it starts there, and with a mere word.

Judging the difference between what is ascertainable and what is discernible is once again addressed in one of my recent posts about two people standing on the same mountain and not seeing or recording the same thing. And it doesn't matter whether it was a participant in that battle or us today, or for that matter someone in the future pissing on the flowers below because the scent of tuberose offends them. They have never stopped once to see the beauty, not just of the flower below their feet, but the fragrance it gave off before they passed the gall. And when such answers are given to them gratis, they see in it intoxication beyond reason to cause the bugger to start a back room brawl for no other reason than he can do it, rather than try to ascertain what was discernible in their answers or reply. They are quick to call someone, participant or us today a moron, a liar and nearly every name under the sun simply because they are wrong by the ascertainable facts and yet can not discern even the minutest of discernible detail concerning Custer's ride down that right bank, because they have placed disrespect in the call to judge others for what they think they deserve, and can never be acquired because of the same.

Instead of smelling roses of different variety, instead of seeing with their vision unobscured on the same mountain as all the rest in common, far beyond what wasn't ascertainable, and instead of seeing that reflection in that mirror as anything but what it really is, was and forever will be. Instead they'd be willing to bet their very existence upon a single ascertainable battle fact, that Custer wasn't riding to the sound of battle when he rode down the right bank. The difference being in what he was doing, which no one knows for sure, and what they make him do and where they said he did it. And that discernible fact is obvious for those who aren't looking at the same bears picking cherries from the mountain top. And should be called for what it discernibly looked like, and where it was, rather than what someone thought it ascertainably was. And there to are those of like character who would willingly call those who were at that battle liars and morons and yet wave the flag for someone else and tell you what its worth because you should bow before them to, as everyone else is a moron or liar that isn't of the same level of unimpeachable character as they are.

I think it describes what you were asking. And places into context the misunderstanding created by their own ignorance and conceit. Because that one word, just one is really what its all about. Its not about who is right and who is wrong. It's not about where Martin turned back or where Benteen really was when he received that note. But it is about that one mere word. The word they evade with a passion for what they know, that they can't ever step down from the limelight of knowing the Theory of Everything, telling about the Theory of Everything so that others may laud them and their efforts forever. Because that one discernible word they can never ascertain is, respect.

[joewiggs]

God Bless you T.B.W., your message is the essence of all that I believe in;respect! To be able to express yourself with the freedom and knowledge that whatever position you take your right to do so will be honored.

To share that same freedom with other posters who,too, understand a basic principle that encompasses all people who believe in the universal theorem which elevates us above the untutored;the ability to agree to disagree!

Once ego's are checked away and,therefore, devalued as a source of response, knowledge becomes elevated as a primary source of communication interchange and much is learned by all.

The more we share in good faith and honesty the more we are empowered with the desire to exchange thoughts, values, and respect.

No matter how much I believe I know, I never fail to learn precious kernels of truth from you and the other members of this forum. What an exciting and joyful experience I am having!
Thank you all!

[tbw]

May 11, 2012 17:06:42 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

God Bless you T.B.W., your message is the essence of all that I believe in;respect! To be able to express yourself with the freedom and knowledge that whatever position you take your right to do so will be honored.

To share that same freedom with other posters who,too, understand a basic principle that encompasses all people who believe in the universal theorem which elevates us above the untutored;the ability to agree to disagree!

Once ego's are checked away and,therefore, devalued as a source of response, knowledge becomes elevated as a primary source of communication interchange and much is learned by all.

The more we share in good faith and honesty the more we are empowered with the desire to exchange thoughts, values, and respect.

No matter how much I believe I know, I never fail to learn precious kernels of truth from you and the other members of this forum. What an exciting and joyful experience I am having!
Thank you all!

That's exactly what I'm talking about. There are no experts in this field. Not one person knows everything that happened that day, and if they think they do, quite frankly, they're self-delusional. Sure, I've done timing studies, enough to know that it doesn't work except in small doses, enough to discern what might have been happening around an event, enough to tell us what was possible and what wasn't. And even then in many cases, those well accepted old "where's" are wrong, and this has skewed everything else up, so much so that if it was a mere hundred yards away from where that event was percieved by us to have been, and many many a time its much farther away than that, that timeing and any other on a large scale will keep everyone going over that same old trail, as in, same song, 2nd verse without fail. Weir peak is perhaps one of the worst of all for what didn't happen, or in many an instance outside of our perception, did happen there, and the same can be and should be applied to Reno Hill.

Then we have those who keep trying to have Custer go slow, or slow down or even stop while going down the right bank. It takes a good deal of thinking over this, even outside the box everyone creates for themselves in trying to follow someone elses logic that hasn't a clue. But it does defy what every one of those who rode with Custer had to say about that speed in going down that right bank, and I'd think that's something no one should overlook, but it is. It is in favor of what? A few scared men going into a fight or fighting a battle that thought they saw 1 man where? And not even that could be agreed upon, it could have been anywhere from Reno hill to Bouyer's bluffs by what Girard, Varnum and others said about that other sighting which puts that sighting in peril of being a hopeless thought in afterthought, and as being hopeful that he was one of the last men to see Custer alive. Think about it, who could have been up there if Custer and his main command wasn't? Those 6 men and a Lieutenant detached in front of the main body? Mitch Bouyer and the crows? Could one of those men been dressed exactly as Custer was dressed riding a similar horse that day? And do we know for sure they weren't? Its this one event, going over those bluffs and believing it that makes Custer look like a fruit loop, but he didn't, and both Curley and Martin both said he didn't, not there. But their words are ever hollow to those who want to hear a different story, written a different way.

I'm not saying here that anyone should change their views or their own opinions by what I've said. All I ask is a fair hearing of that view and a due consideration of those points in lieu of no one knowing for sure. I'm sure to argue these and other points each and every time because of the same, should anyone care. I've tried this before, here especially and other places as well, and I've been called many a name because of my views, and no doubt still am. But I will say this, anyone, you Joe, you bc, or cc, or for that matter anyone else is entitled to their opinion no matter what I say about it, and I more than anyone else knows this and it is because of that word, respect. Respect for those who want to think what they want to think because of that same reason, no one knows for sure. And I'll conclude here with this. I like those, like yourself Joe, and like you bc and from what I've seen, stranges own and others opinions here as well, because you don't leave anyone hanging as to why you believe as you do. You present the case for your views based upon the evidence you deem necessary and because of that fact alone, I have deep and abiding respect for each and every one of you.

[stumblingbear]

Me too! I have felt my confidence grow because of the open mindedness of all those you have mentioned. I was so impressed with the way CC was handled. Even though he sometime ranted about Custer, no one screamed him down or became angry.

I have noticed this fine quality in bc also. I have been following his message with interest. The way he interacts with Joe and T.B.W is fine and interesting even though it's kind of hard to keep up with you guys! I certainly enjoying trying anyway.

[joewiggs]

People will forget what you did and forget what you said, the one thing they will not forget is how you treat them. Members of this wonderful forum have always treated each other with respect and dignity. I will always remember this and will always be grateful to all of you for the way you have treated me! God bless you all!

[whitebull]

You know something, after thinking about it for awhile I've come to the conclusion that people like CC serve a purpose. They keep the Pot stirred. Nothing you could say would change his mind about Custer and didn't matter if what you said was factual.

People like him make you do your homework to counter whatever crazy thing he would come up with. heck, I learned a lot from everyone else when that tried shoe CC the error of his ways.

I wish he would come back! ;D