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Post by whitebull on Nov 3, 2012 18:22:51 GMT -5
Have you ever done something that not a moment later you wish you hadn't? Have you ever said something to a person that you wish you could take it back but, whoops, to late - thar she blows!
I bet you a dollar to a donut that the Battle of the Little Big Horn would have turned out a whole lot different if Custer had talked instead of shooting. I believe that Sitting Bull had such a big gathering of folks because he was just living the life they all loved and cherished, hunting, dancing, and sharing war stories around the old camp fire.
They were all enjoying the freedom to be what they were born to be, something that just could not happen on a reservation. Custer approached the village with-one intent only, to kill and capture as many Indians as need be to break their spirit.That is why his men died, that is why Reno fell apart, and why Benteen blamed everybody but himself for what happened.
One time I went out of my way to hurt somebody because I believed that "somebody" purposely hurt me! I won but, at the same time I lost.
Have you every felt that way?
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Post by joewiggs on Nov 3, 2012 18:26:50 GMT -5
White bull you old dog, I believe that you have just a tad of sentimentality in you! You do have a salient point to ponder. Their exist some Indian testimony that if Custer had simply came in to talk that many of the Indians would have chosen to return to the reservations rather than fight. Of course we will never known. Good job Sir.
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Post by tbw on Nov 4, 2012 16:35:05 GMT -5
Have you ever done something that not a moment later you wish you hadn't? Have you ever said something to a person that you wish you could take it back but, whoops, to late - thar she blows! I bet you a dollar to a donut that the Battle of the Little Big Horn would have turned out a whole lot different if Custer had talked instead of shooting. I believe that Sitting Bull had such a big gathering of folks because he was just living the life they all loved and cherished, hunting, dancing, and sharing war stories around the old camp fire. They were all enjoying the freedom to be what they were born to be, something that just could not happen on a reservation. Custer approached the village with-one intent only, to kill and capture as many Indians as need be to break their spirit.That is why his men died, that is why Reno fell apart, and why Benteen blamed everybody but himself for what happened. One time I went out of my way to hurt somebody because I believed that "somebody" purposely hurt me! I won but, at the same time I lost. Have you every felt that way? WB I think we all have done that at one time or another, and if not will before we pass. Its part of being human. The LBH, Custer, Benteen and Reno all attract many a person of different thought processes. Each bringing to the table something different to ponder. There are of course the extremes, like, whether Benteen was a butt head or a savior, the same can be said of the other two. And there is not one person who can agree to the degree of praise or blame. What it comes down to is one's own person opinion because the documentation we have on hand today is so severely flawed as to the truth, that in most instances no two persons, even back then, could state or think the same about them or what had happened at the LBH. In my own personal experience I can state that I think I've found most of the answers, but its not what is generally accepted and therefore my idealism is crowned by those who keep on repeating the past errors as something they would refer to as 'revisionist' and in the most rude and crude manner possible expound (thar she blows) every cursed name under the sun to not just my idealism, but to me as well. The fact of the matter is, if I would just expound in total what I do know, it would be they who would be classified the revisionist. Its not so much that the battle could have turned out different as much as much as it was who was at fault for the disaster. And there we have to be careful not to offend those long time revisionist who keep on trotting out the same age old myths, that had it been a trail followed by Custer, Benteen or Reno, they'd have been wrong had they gone off trail by a couple of feet just to take a pee, according to them. And its not so much taking things back as it is standing tall and taking the punishment from those whose opinion is so strong that their own flawed opinion can't be reconciled as anything else but the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Who can win and who can lose in this disaster just waiting to happen? The truth is we all lose. Because if we can't discuss our idealisms, our opinions without their flawed re-butt-al stated as absolute truth, and yours as insanely impossible, then the truth can't ever be, and wont ever be discovered. I've personally been through this wringer, and I now absolutely refuse to even participate in forums that have such hard headed individuals whose only purpose is to put down anything else than what they believe as heretical if it doesn't agree with their opinion. And it isn't so much that they've won as much as they've lost what I do know... and I know I'm not alone and that's what makes my silence - golden  |
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Post by joewiggs on Nov 4, 2012 19:56:28 GMT -5
tbw, you have hit the proverbial "hammer" right on the head! I know I have had numerous regrets in my life, to many to count. I was such an idiot in my youth. And yes, regrets of this type are so much a part of being "Human." Your analogy of Benteen being a "butt head or a Savior" is an example par excellence! Could he have been both?!  |
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Post by strange on Nov 9, 2012 16:11:51 GMT -5
tbw, you have hit the proverbial "hammer" right on the head! I know I have had numerous regrets in my life, to many to count. I was such an idiot in my youth. And yes, regrets of this type are so much a part of being "Human." Your analogy of Benteen being a "butt head or a Savior" is an example par excellence! Could he have been both?! Well, Benty didn't quite save anyone (at least not to a substantial degree). You told me lots of great things about Godfrey's skirmish line, and I think Benteen also brought some reason to Reno and helped Reno do what Reno would have done if he were in his better sense, but Benteen wasn't particularly incredible. He just did his job, got some men inspired, etc. As for Butt Head, that is pretty well clear to anyone who reads his letters. |
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Post by joewiggs on Nov 9, 2012 17:25:57 GMT -5
;D the letter do speak volumes, don't they! ;D That man had nothing decent to say about anyone to my knowledge. Even his only surviving child seemed to be a bit estranged from his father. Thanks for the compliment. Coming from you it is doubly treasured!  |
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Post by stumblingbear on Nov 10, 2012 19:11:28 GMT -5
tbw, you have hit the proverbial "hammer" right on the head! I know I have had numerous regrets in my life, to many to count. I was such an idiot in my youth. And yes, regrets of this type are so much a part of being "Human." Your analogy of Benteen being a "butt head or a Savior" is an example par excellence! Could he have been both?! Well, Benty didn't quite save anyone (at least not to a substantial degree). You told me lots of great things about Godfrey's skirmish line, and I think Benteen also brought some reason to Reno and helped Reno do what Reno would have done if he were in his better sense, but Benteen wasn't particularly incredible. He just did his job, got some men inspired, etc. As for Butt Head, that is pretty well clear to anyone who reads his letters. In Graham's "Custer's Myth" Benteen wrote terrible things about most of the officers who were there to include Reno. It seems that he felt the other officers were incompetent while he alone save the day. That's the impression I got from reading graham's book. Mr. Strange you are right! |
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Post by whitebull on Nov 11, 2012 19:40:03 GMT -5
I've been trying to put myself in the place of those soldiers to get a feel of how they they must have felt when the injuns ripped into them. You see, they went into the battle with the idea of riping and tearing apart as many Indians as possible. When the table got turned, they felt the same deep, gut renching fear that they were planning to slap the village with.
Why can't men fighting a war think about the turning of the table before the table turns on them? Mercy is given when it's got!
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Post by joewiggs on Nov 11, 2012 19:55:26 GMT -5
That's the main problem with the "Human Condition" WB, the inability of man to realize that we "reap" exactly what we "sow". War is ironic in that as we inflict pain and suffering on others with glee, we wish that "others" have mercy upon us when, as you say, the tables are turned.
While I do not believe that an extraordinary number of soldiers killed themselves, as reported by Indian sources, I do believe that some of the soldiers did take their own lives rather than face a screaming "savage" imbued with a ferocious desire to inflict a violent "coo" with an already crimson war stick.
If only all men were capable of understand the theory of "karma" before committing an act of violence. Kill those who are bent upon killing you but, spare those who wish to surrender.
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Post by whitebull on Jan 27, 2013 17:16:57 GMT -5
I just had a funny thought! What if we prove that Benteen was a little late getting to Custer because he did not follow orders, that Reno's charge was a route, that Reno and Benteen waited to long to move from the hill to Weir's Point, that Custer actually had a plan? So what? Would anything have changed?  |
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Post by joewiggs on Feb 16, 2013 12:03:00 GMT -5
Yes, a great deal would have changed. When different circumstances are factored into any scenario changes are bound to occur, this does not necessarily interpreted into a victory for Custer, however. His chances of winning are diametrically related to an aggressive input from the other two companies. The more Benteen and Reno fail to support Custer's group the greater the chance of failure which actually occurred. the more aggressive the combine front of all three units the greater the chance of the warriors fleeing.
There is no way we will ever know exactly what may have happened. However, we can speculate,safely, that Custer would have with drawn his forces out of an obviously critical situation had he know earlier of Reno's retreat. When the General departed Calhoun Hill and headed further north he and his men were doomed. Had he realized that Benteen was not coming, he would have (undoubtedly) fell back and excavated his men;the only rational thing to do at that point.
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