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Post by joewiggs on Jan 27, 2013 11:06:27 GMT -5
While watching a documentary regarding World War ll (early in the morning as I could not sleep) that centered upon the Normandy Beach assault, I was startled by an insert of film that discussed the actions of a General who landed on the beach with his men.
To be honest, I was surprised and really was unaware that a soldier of such high rank participated in the first assault and, actually landed with the troops on that horrific day when "hot" German lead strafed the beaches killing hundreds of American soldiers (grunts) as they were pinned down in a hail of death and fire. I was certainly wrong and foolish.
Suddenly, a one star, rather rotund General was seen hollering and encouraging his men to move off the beach toward German positions that were heavily defended. the narrator explained that the man was 51 years old, the oldest soldier on the field that day!
The men began to respond to the Generals example of courage and slowly moved forward assaulting and passing the first German line of defense. Unfortunately, the second line of German defense was even more formidable and, once again, the soldiers were pinned down after receiving many losses.
The courageous one star General watched the chaos for a while and realized that unless something happened quickly, all would be lost in that sector of the battlefield. Removing his well worn stogy from his mouth the General calmly stated to the men who had gathered near him, "Gentleman, we will die here so we might as well die up there."
The General then rose up from his knees, stood up and tossed a hand grenade toward the enemy position and charged forward followed by his men as they all charged into the jowls of death together.
The General at Normandy was the antithesis of Reno. Leadership by example has turned the tide of battle throughout the annals of history. the lack of leadership will transform a critical situation, into a desperate one, and finally a critical one quickly.
We have spent so much time discussing the physical aspects of combat - the timber could, could not be defended, Custer should, should not have charged, there were too, not too many Indians to defeat, the battleground was conducive, not conducive to a Calvary charge, the village was too big, not to big to handle,etc.,etc., etc.
I suggest that leadership (or the lack thereof) at a critical time and place during the battle was the primary exponent that created the fatalistic circumstances that resulted in Custer's defeat. Further, Reno's lack of leadership quickly eradicated any chance of his success and, nullified any possible offensive efforts by Benteen, as well, as he quickly realized that demoralization had effected the majority of the command on the hill. What do you all think?
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Post by joewiggs on Jan 27, 2013 12:52:04 GMT -5
The following does not fall under the category of "good" leadership.
"Dan Neeley.....," said Captain Miles Moylan....was called Arapaho Michie, because he was laying behind an Arapaho [pack mule aparejo] all the time."
Now the rank and file of the military of that era were trained and condition,vehemently, to believe the officer class were the best soldiers possible and when in a deadly bind, look to the "officer" to succor you. Imagine what must have happened to many of the younger, less trained soldiers when they caught Moylan in such a fix!
P291, Forty Miles A Day On Beans And Hay.
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Post by tbw on Jan 27, 2013 17:43:07 GMT -5
The following does not fall under the category of "good" leadership. "Dan Neeley.....," said Captain Miles Moylan....was called Arapaho Michie, because he was laying behind an Arapaho [pack mule aparejo] all the time." Now the rank and file of the military of that era were trained and condition,vehemently, to believe the officer class were the best soldiers possible and when in a deadly bind, look to the "officer" to succor you. Imagine what must have happened to many of the younger, less trained soldiers when they caught Moylan in such a fix! P291, Forty Miles A Day On Beans And Hay. I think Moylan has gotten a bad rap over the things that happened at the LBH. And I'm not sure I agree with all that was said about him. Here are a couple of things he had to say at the COI. Ponder on it is all i ask of anyone. Q. What part of the command first started or pulled off from there? A. Capt, Benteen's battalion. Q. What was the direction of the line of march of Capt. Benteen as compared with the line of march of Gen. Custer and Maj. Reno, so far as you knew at the time? A, I very soon lost sight of him. At times he would appear again the country is very much broken - and he appeared and disappeared from time to time. Q. State at what angle the divergence from the column General Custer was. A. He went off at almost a right angle. 1 think our course was almost due north; and his would probably be a little north of west. Q. State what developments or evidences of fighting you found on Gen. Custer's trail, A. I did not examine the trail at all, I do not know that I ever saw it until I got to this watering-place. It was probably half a mile from
there I saw the first bodies. The evidences of fighting were a great many dead men lying about there, I saw Lieut. Calhouns company were killed in regular position of skirmishers. I countes twenty-eight cartridge shells around one man, and between the intervals there were shells scattered. In deploying the men to hunt for the bodies, my company was on the left next the river, and there but few evidences of fighting there, But when Lt. Calhoun's body was reached, I had permission to go and identify it, as he was a brother-in-law of mine. As soon as his body was found I was sent for, and that is the way I happened to see those bodies. |
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Post by stumblingbear on Jan 27, 2013 18:37:06 GMT -5
I see your point and, it was well written and made so much sense. What ever happened to everyone involved in that battle that day must have been terrible and, who are we to judge them from the safety and comfort of our homes. I forget the battle but, I believe Moylan won a medal in a battle following the Big Horn.
You see, anyone may have a bad day, I know I have. Since I have been here I have learned a lot of information. I have also learned compassion for these men thaks to the great teachers on this forum.
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Post by whitebull on Jan 27, 2013 18:53:28 GMT -5
If Moylan hid behind a saddle during the fighting as other people have said he did then he deserves the rep. that he got, sorry! Tell the widows and orphans of the battle that Moylan was a O.K. guy!
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Post by joewiggs on Feb 1, 2013 9:40:14 GMT -5
Everyman, under the right conditions, can subjected to conditions that could result in a mental or physical breakdown. Should that one incident define that person for the rest of their lives despite any and all heroics they may have performed before or after a deplorable incident? Probably not.
My point in bringing up this subject was to infuse a reality of consequences into the battle (mental debilitation under stress from combat) that may have been the real culprit that influenced the outcome of this battle and, a plausible reason why officers chose to testify as they did at the inquiry. Testimony that helped to create an incorrect perspective that has painted an erroneous picture of what may have actually occurred during the battle that, in turn, fostered the belief that Custer was irresponsible in his decisions to attack the village as he did. An opinion that is simply not true.
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Post by whitebull on Feb 2, 2013 20:27:06 GMT -5
Everyman, under the right conditions, can subjected to conditions that could result in a mental or physical breakdown. Should that one incident define that person for the rest of their lives despite any and all heroics they may have performed before or after a deplorable incident? Probably not. My point in bringing up this subject was to infuse a reality of consequences into the battle (mental debilitation under stress from combat) that may have been the real culprit that influenced the outcome of this battle and, a plausible reason why officers chose to testify as they did at the inquiry. Testimony that helped to create an incorrect perspective that has painted an erroneous picture of what may have actually occurred during the battle that, in turn, fostered the belief that Custer was irresponsible in his decisions to attack the village as he did. An opinion that is simply not true. No offense Joe but a snake is a snake and a biscuit is a biscuit. Moylan was a chump and he embarrassed hiself! >:(l |
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Post by joewiggs on Feb 3, 2013 18:46:12 GMT -5
Moylan suffered a mental debilitation as a result of the combat he was involved in during the retreat led by Reno. many soldiers from the Viet-Nam era can testify such a mental condition. That one act, no matter how embarrassing, does not define a man for the rest of his life. Moylan achieved officer's status through the ranks which, during that era, was almost impossible. He did not graduate from West Point. Biscuit or not a biscuit that remarkable feat speaks volumes!
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Post by stumblingbear on Feb 4, 2013 16:01:24 GMT -5
Moylan suffered a mental debilitation as a result of the combat he was involved in during the retreat led by Reno. many soldiers from the Viet-Nam era can testify such a mental condition. That one act, no matter how embarrassing, does not define a man for the rest of his life. Moylan achieved officer's status through the ranks which, during that era, was almost impossible. He did not graduate from West Point. Biscuit or not a biscuit that remarkable feat speaks volumes! I agree! You shouldn't judge a man's entire life by one mistake. |
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Post by strange on Feb 6, 2013 13:14:04 GMT -5
I like Moylan. I think everybody has a right to lose their cool every once in a while. He took it like a man afterwards and he didn't attack others or try to hard to cover himself up. Its a much better way to behave than most other officers do. Ulysses Grant has been dense on a few instances and he even suffered a bit of a mental break down at Shiloh. It was not a visible one like with Moylan but he apparently (if I remember the Burns documentary right) sat next to a tree and didn't move or say anything for a while and just gazed blankly. Sherman observed him like this (as I recall) and I think even he criticized Grant for going too far with the squandering of men (bear in mind, Sherman is the same guy who also adored Hugh Judson Kilpatrick and he's Grant's best friend. To say that Grant squandered people unnecessarily is very well documented).
Grant also didn't specify his orders well enough for Lew Wallace and he screwed him over that way. Grant has quite a few little mental slips like this, and there's no shame in that EXCEPT for the fact that he black marked Wallace for the rest of his life accusing him of screwing up at Shiloh. Grant should have taken more personal responsibility or he should have kept his jaw shut altogether. Moylan is a better man than many officers, as far as I'm concerned.
Strange
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Post by whitebull on Feb 6, 2013 14:55:31 GMT -5
I like Moylan. I think everybody has a right to lose their cool every once in a while. He took it like a man afterwards and he didn't attack others or try to hard to cover himself up. Its a much better way to behave than most other officers do. Ulysses Grant has been dense on a few instances and he even suffered a bit of a mental break down at Shiloh. It was not a visible one like with Moylan but he apparently (if I remember the Burns documentary right) sat next to a tree and didn't move or say anything for a while and just gazed blankly. Sherman observed him like this (as I recall) and I think even he criticized Grant for going too far with the squandering of men (bear in mind, Sherman is the same guy who also adored Hugh Judson Kilpatrick and he's Grant's best friend. To say that Grant squandered people unnecessarily is very well documented). Grant also didn't specify his orders well enough for Lew Wallace and he screwed him over that way. Grant has quite a few little mental slips like this, and there's no shame in that EXCEPT for the fact that he black marked Wallace for the rest of his life accusing him of screwing up at Shiloh. Grant should have taken more personal responsibility or he should have kept his jaw shut altogether. Moylan is a better man than many officers, as far as I'm concerned. Strange No way Jose! Can't agree with you! when mighty "MOE" had his little slip up, other people wuz getting killed.  "MOE" and Reno led the scramble to them dar hills while 27 of their friends got killed on the way. Why do we have officers? To lead me in fighting, not to lead in getting out of Dodge. Tell you want partner, give me Grant anyday over Moylan! |
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Post by whitebull on Feb 6, 2013 15:01:15 GMT -5
Moylan suffered a mental debilitation as a result of the combat he was involved in during the retreat led by Reno. many soldiers from the Viet-Nam era can testify such a mental condition. That one act, no matter how embarrassing, does not define a man for the rest of his life. Moylan achieved officer's status through the ranks which, during that era, was almost impossible. He did not graduate from West Point. Biscuit or not a biscuit that remarkable feat speaks volumes! I agree! You shouldn't judge a man's entire life by one mistake. If a mistake is big enough (this wuz) than you judge the man or women on what they did or didn't do forever. |
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Post by stumblingbear on Feb 8, 2013 18:34:23 GMT -5
I like Moylan. I think everybody has a right to lose their cool every once in a while. He took it like a man afterwards and he didn't attack others or try to hard to cover himself up. Its a much better way to behave than most other officers do. Ulysses Grant has been dense on a few instances and he even suffered a bit of a mental break down at Shiloh. It was not a visible one like with Moylan but he apparently (if I remember the Burns documentary right) sat next to a tree and didn't move or say anything for a while and just gazed blankly. Sherman observed him like this (as I recall) and I think even he criticized Grant for going too far with the squandering of men (bear in mind, Sherman is the same guy who also adored Hugh Judson Kilpatrick and he's Grant's best friend. To say that Grant squandered people unnecessarily is very well documented). Grant also didn't specify his orders well enough for Lew Wallace and he screwed him over that way. Grant has quite a few little mental slips like this, and there's no shame in that EXCEPT for the fact that he black marked Wallace for the rest of his life accusing him of screwing up at Shiloh. Grant should have taken more personal responsibility or he should have kept his jaw shut altogether. Moylan is a better man than many officers, as far as I'm concerned. Strange No way Jose! Can't agree with you! when mighty "MOE" had his little slip up, other people wuz getting killed. "MOE" and Reno led the scramble to them dar hills while 27 of their friends got killed on the way. Why do we have officers? To lead me in fighting, not to lead in getting out of Dodge. Tell you want partner, give me Grant anyday over Moylan! Whitebull, I'm beginning to suspect your orthophrenia.  |
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Post by joewiggs on Feb 8, 2013 20:07:10 GMT -5
I'm not sure what that word means but it sure ain't "subtlety"! ;D
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Post by whitebull on Feb 9, 2013 11:13:07 GMT -5
I lost my pocket dictionary so i don't know what it means either. What I do know is that Moylan was a chump and always will be a chump as far as I can throw him!
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"MOE" and Reno led the scramble to them dar hills while 27 of their friends got killed on the way. Why do we have officers? To lead me in fighting, not to lead in getting out of Dodge.