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Post by stumblingbear on Oct 9, 2013 13:05:24 GMT -5
If a person is scared to death in any given situation where death may be immanent, what happens to the mind and body of that person? What physical changes take place that could make someone unable to think or act in such a way as to protect themselves at a critical, life and death moment?
Jim fox had a really interesting section in his book that describes men in battle from the time of Napoleon to Vietnam. I did not know that only a part of the men on a firing line will return fire (when being shot at) while others would not, doing nothing but huddling..
I also read that under stress, soldiers tend to fire "high" missing the intended target altogether.
Fox went on to write that only a significant amount of training would significantly raise the odds of soldiers firing correctly.
When I think of the minds of the men who rode with Custer just full of excitement and glee believing that they were on an adventure. Riding hard against savage Indians whom they were certain to beat!
How their excitement for glory must have turned to dread and fear when the whooping Indians charged through the soldier ranks screaming, yelling, and swinging their Tommy hawks.
What may have happened to the minds of the soldiers then?
Could those same men have become so afraid when faced with an unexpected, impending death that they simply could not react as they should have. Did men (without thinking) desert one another and run for their lives?
I think it was probable.
Later, when safety was reached on the hill, how many of these men would have allowed themselves to remember their flight. How many would accuse others of cowardice when they too were running for their very lives.
When the unexpected suddenly happens, without warning, against all odds, men at that time and conditions of the battle may have crumbled. Today we have psychologists and doctors who defined and promote 'battle fatigue" for soldiers who fell under the dark side of combat and do not fight well.
Back then you only had the term "coward" to describe any action other than facing the enemy.
In my mind, this, or something similar to this happened at the Little Big Horn. The soldiers who fled could only justify their actions by claiming that the soldiers who did not flee where led by a "nut."
As a result, the one officer who could not explain or defend his position (Custer died) was used as a scrape goat so that the military would not look completely foolish.
Needless to say, Benteen and Reno were very willing to go along with the program.
What do you all think?
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Post by whitebull on Oct 10, 2013 13:51:48 GMT -5
If a person is scared to death in any given situation where death may be immanent, what happens to the mind and body of that person? What physical changes take place that could make someone unable to think or act in such a way as to protect themselves at a critical, life and death moment? Jim fox had a really interesting section in his book that describes men in battle from the time of Napoleon to Vietnam. I did not know that only a part of the men on a firing line will return fire (when being shot at) while others would not, doing nothing but huddling.. I also read that under stress, soldiers tend to fire "high" missing the intended target altogether. Fox went on to write that only a significant amount of training would significantly raise the odds of soldiers firing correctly. When I think of the minds of the men who rode with Custer just full of excitement and glee believing that they were on an adventure. Riding hard against savage Indians whom they were certain to beat! How their excitement for glory must have turned to dread and fear when the whooping Indians charged through the soldier ranks screaming, yelling, and swinging their Tommy hawks. What may have happened to the minds of the soldiers then? Could those same men have become so afraid when faced with an unexpected, impending death that they simply could not react as they should have. Did men (without thinking) desert one another and run for their lives? I think it was probable. Later, when safety was reached on the hill, how many of these men would have allowed themselves to remember their flight. How many would accuse others of cowardice when they too were running for their very lives. When the unexpected suddenly happens, without warning, against all odds, men at that time and conditions of the battle may have crumbled. Today we have psychologists and doctors who defined and promote 'battle fatigue" for soldiers who fell under the dark side of combat and do not fight well. Back then you only had the term "coward" to describe any action other than facing the enemy. In my mind, this, or something similar to this happened at the Little Big Horn. The soldiers who fled could only justify their actions by claiming that the soldiers who did not flee where led by a "nut." As a result, the one officer who could not explain or defend his position (Custer died) was used as a scrape goat so that the military would not look completely foolish. Needless to say, Benteen and Reno were very willing to go along with the program. What do you all think? I think you got something there! It makes sense to me. If you are so frigging scared that you can't even think straight, how are you going to point a gun straight? Indian stories are full of the soldiers acting like they was "drunk." While Reno may have been tight other soldiers may have been so shook up at the end that they started begging for their lives, throwing down their rifles, or trying to out run a Indian pony on foot. All of the above would sure look like you were drunk or just plum crazy. i think a lot of what really happened during the battle was lost because people back then just couldn't or didn't want to know that Indians could beat a white man in anything. I would guess that the mind would get confused and the mussels in your body would get tight so that you couldn't figure out the best way to escape and your body would be so excited that it could,'t help you to get away. Another thing! if i choked up like that i sure wouldn't want anyone else to know about! :oi |
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Post by stumblingbear on Oct 11, 2013 13:23:41 GMT -5
I guess things were a lot different then then they are now!
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Post by joewiggs on Oct 11, 2013 18:47:37 GMT -5
S.B. you have hit the proverbial nail right on the old head. A large group of men eagerly went dashing into uncharted lands with a conviction that the misdeeds of a savage race would be eradicated and made to pay retribution for their immoral and, illogical insistence that their land belong to them and no one else.
The fact that the Sioux stole the land from the Crows and the white man stole it from both of them was neither here nor there. The great General Custer under the auspices of Gen. Terry would reprimand these interlopers and miscreants for their insolence.
On a given hot Sunday with the brilliant sun sending blistering rays of heat upon their tired backs and clouds of choking dust emanating from the every earth into the heights of heaven itself itself these stalwart men rode on and into the gates of Valhalla itself.
Unfortunately, the Sioux whipped them like only their mommas could have done many years ago.
Defeated, embarrassed, humiliated, and down right frustrated, the Generals were forced to come out with a feasible explanation as to why they got whipped by savages.
Simply put, a stark raving mad lunatic who happened to get himself killed in the battle along with his entire command (witnesses) was chosen.
Why if Custer hadn't rushed in where wise men fear to thread, Reno and Benteen would have destroyed them savages for sure!!!
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Post by stumblingbear on Oct 17, 2013 18:41:01 GMT -5
Is it possible that the biggest secret of the battle, the thing that makes it such a mystery and so mixed up is that at sometime, Custer's men just fell apart? Even Benteen said that there were no battle lines, that you could have thrown a bunch of corn (I think) and the scattered kernels would represent a line as much as the one Custer's men did. I'm not saying that's so but, it surer would explain the confusion, the testimony that contradicted everything, and the mess this battle became! My goodness, just think about it!  |
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Post by tbw on Oct 19, 2013 11:57:57 GMT -5
Is it possible that the biggest secret of the battle, the thing that makes it such a mystery and so mixed up is that at sometime, Custer's men just fell apart? Even Benteen said that there were no battle lines, that you could have thrown a bunch of corn (I think) and the scattered kernels would represent a line as much as the one Custer's men did. I'm not saying that's so but, it surer would explain the confusion, the testimony that contradicted everything, and the mess this battle became! My goodness, just think about it! You're not going to get any argument from me on that one. A great many, to many for comfort, like to think Custer and his men stood atop that barren ridge for more than 30 minutes firing away at the Indians and being like the hero's they try to portray in the movies today. The reality is far removed from their dreams and so called expert advice. Your take on this is spot on. The oncoming mounted Indians Curley explained as being in the hundreds was more than enough for Custer to immediately stop what he was doing and quarter back onto the ridge where he and his men died moments later - and surely no later than 30 minutes of time. It was, to put it in modern terms we all can understand, the Indians shock and awe moment. The very moment Custer knew his goose was about to be stewed. Mistakes? Sure, there were many of them made that day, but had those under his command did what they were told to do, when they were told to do it, that battle would have been significantly different than we know it as today. |
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Post by joewiggs on Oct 19, 2013 18:29:31 GMT -5
You know what really amazes me about this battle? The insistence of the artists who portray the soldiers standing and firing away. So many Indians were throwing so much hot lead at the troops that,undoubtedly, every soldier on that hill was trying to dig a hole to China to avoid being hit. Now, that's perfectly normal under the circumstances!
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Post by whitebull on Oct 19, 2013 18:34:53 GMT -5
Can you imagine the heat the soldiers got from every direction. Man, .the Indians were shooting from hundreds of yards away. They probably didn't rush the position until most of the guys were down and out. I've never believed that there was a huge, hand-to-hand, free for all at the last. I believe that any live men left at the end were already wounded beyond help. Man that's sad!  |
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Post by joewiggs on Oct 19, 2013 18:47:42 GMT -5
It was sad, at the end. Mothers, wives, sisters and, girlfriends were left with nothing but a fleeting memory of their loved ones and the warm tears of regret. However, we should remember that one group of men came to a specific area with the intent to strike down another group of men. It is particularly sad that "men" have not learned to share all of "Nature's" gifts and to enjoy the beauty of life.
As Stumblingbear referred to, the horror of war and the physical stress this horror manufactures has a direct correlation to a mental breakdown that will cause soldiers to act in a way that may seem strange to the victors;dropping your weapons and pleading for mercy, shooting straight into the air, tremendous muscle jerks that make a man's arms wave hysterically while the legs move slowly. In a word, what the warriors referred to as the soldiers acting as if they were, "drunk.!
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Post by stumblingbear on Oct 19, 2013 18:52:40 GMT -5
Is it possible that the biggest secret of the battle, the thing that makes it such a mystery and so mixed up is that at sometime, Custer's men just fell apart? Even Benteen said that there were no battle lines, that you could have thrown a bunch of corn (I think) and the scattered kernels would represent a line as much as the one Custer's men did. I'm not saying that's so but, it surer would explain the confusion, the testimony that contradicted everything, and the mess this battle became! My goodness, just think about it! You're not going to get any argument from me on that one. A great many, to many for comfort, like to think Custer and his men stood atop that barren ridge for more than 30 minutes firing away at the Indians and being like the hero's they try to portray in the movies today. The reality is far removed from their dreams and so called expert advice. Your take on this is spot on. The oncoming mounted Indians Curley explained as being in the hundreds was more than enough for Custer to immediately stop what he was doing and quarter back onto the ridge where he and his men died moments later - and surely no later than 30 minutes of time. It was, to put it in modern terms we all can understand, the Indians shock and awe moment. The very moment Custer knew his goose was about to be stewed. Mistakes? Sure, there were many of them made that day, but had those under his command did what they were told to do, when they were told to do it, that battle would have been significantly different than we know it as today. I agree so much. Mistakes were certainly made but, perhaps if the others had backed him up the terrivle end may have been a little different! Thank you! |
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Post by whitebull on Nov 15, 2013 13:43:29 GMT -5
The Indians were no dummies! They charged when the soldiers stopped or backed up. They slowed down or retreated whenever soldiers moved toward them. Fox's book was hard for me to read, especially the section on how the travel paths of bullets could be figured out. what I got though is that they basically surround Custer from hundreds of yards away and poured in the hot lead.
soldiers found it hard as heck to pin-point Indian targets because of the high grass they hid in. After a while and a whole lot of Indian "hits" later, they were able to run over the few soldiers who were still alive.
If Benteen had hit any part of that circle I bet the Indians would have scooted. Benteen didn't try and the Indians didn't scoot!
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Post by stumblingbear on Nov 15, 2013 13:51:27 GMT -5
You know what's strange is that we sometimes forget that the old pictures of the battle (They Died with Their Boots On) show scenes that never really happened! Soldiers and Indians running into each other, knocking each other off of horses, and fighting man to man. From what little I have read, the battle was pretty much the way you and Mr. Fox portrayed it.
A lot of shooting back and forth, the soldiers out numbered and things getting pretty desperate. Even though things got very hot for Reno on the Hill, the fact that they survived pretty much proves that the Hill was a much better place then Last Stand Hill.
I agree, a quick movement toward Custer by Reno may have helped save some of Custer's command.
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Post by joewiggs on Dec 1, 2013 19:35:47 GMT -5
"Captain Benteen's counter-attack burst over the crest of his exposed southern perimeter position just as the Indians began its steep ascent to reach him. 'I was getting mad,' Benteen had declared to his troopers, and when he gave the word each one was to, 'yell as if provided with a thousand throats.' Even while forming up, private Thompson, 'could not see how i could possibly get there alive for the bullets of the Indians were ploughing up the sand and gravel in every direction.'
'Are you ready?' Benteen shouted. 'Yes!' was the shouted response. 'charge down there and drive them out.' They launched themselves over the crest of the ridgeline straight into the unsuspecting Indians. 'With a cheer, away they dashed,' said Thompson, 'Their revolvers in one hand and their carbines in the other.' So steep was the slope that the plunging troopers had difficulty remaining on their feet as, shrieking and shouting, they stumbled and tumbled around the sage bush.
The Indians had been steadily infiltrating their way up the thin finger-like ravines leading to the river bellow. they were overwhelmed by the momentum of the charge."
Red Sabbath:page 183
Question: Benteen and company were able to drive the Indians back because a "leader" took charge, inspired his men, and they (together) overwhelmed the very same Indians who wiped out Custer. If Reno had acted accordingly in the timber, could not the same (or similar) chain of events have transpired? If not, why?
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Post by whitebull on Dec 6, 2013 19:24:33 GMT -5
Yea, what you say is true Joe but, Benteen was not dealing with thousands of Indians like Custer. benteen had a whole lot lesser amount of Indians to deal with. Maybe that's why he did better.
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Post by joewiggs on Dec 7, 2013 19:08:00 GMT -5
Wb, the important issue here is that a concerted effort by Benteen and,
Godfrey earlier, caused already embolden warriors to fall back in shock!
If only Reno had performed in a like manner perhaps the warriors at the timber may have acted in a like fashion.
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