Pack Train during Reno's Retreat

[whitebull]

Hiya Bulldawg! We got some good folk here who will be glad to help you if they can. Hope we can help you! ;D

[joewiggs]

Hello Bulldawg! Whitebull is right. I haven't located anything as yet but will keep trying! welcome to the board! ;D

[tbw]

Jun 23, 2012 9:33:02 GMT -5 bulldawg said:

Hi My name is Ernest Locklear
Iam trying to get information about the pack train.

Im trying to find any information on Noah
Alpsaugh, he was my wifes Great-Great grandfather
WAS CIVILAN WAGON DRIVER. For a Mr. Foote that
I'am Guessing was a contractor of some sorts in
1876.I haven been told there is a newspaper artical from Ohio about Noah
being killed with Custer. I have not found anything yet.

NOAH ALSPAUGH: AS A TEAMTSTER FOR A MR FOOTE,
NOAH WAS ENGAGED IN HAULING PROVISIONS
ACROSS THE PLAINS TO THE BLACK HILLS IN
DAKOTA. IN 1876 HE WAS KILLED IN THE
CUSTER MASSACRE, ALONG WITH THE SOLDIERS.


NEED HELP FINDING ANY INFO ABOUT THE MEN WITH THE PACK TRAIN
NOAH MAY HAVE BEEN KILLED AT HILLTOP I AM HOPING THAT HE MIGHT
BE MENTIONED IN A BOOK I CAINT FIND ANY INFO ON THE MR. FOOTE
THAT HAD A CONTRACT WITH THE ARMY WAS HOPING TO MABE LOCATE
A DOCUMENT ABOUT THIS OR A ROSTER LIST OF THE CIVILIANS ON THE PACK TRAIN.
HOPEING MAYBE YOU COULD HELP ME SPREAD THE WORD.
THANK YOU SO MUCH .
EMAIL: [e-mail]

Hello Earnest and welcome.

I have some information on Noah and will forward it to you via the email you gave me. Also will PM the same to you here via the Private Message system. To use just sign in and click the "message link at the top of the page.

Of course some of what I have to offer may be and likely is redundant information you already have. These things as you know take some time to develop, even over the internet, but can be quite rewarding once found, its knowing where to find it. And I will help any way I can.

Regards
TBW

[joewiggs]

I hope Bulldawg will share some of your findings with the forum. It would be a real treat for us as well as he! ;D

[joewiggs]

I just had a really belated though about the Indian testimony of seeing the packs on the bluffs. It's possible that they saw the packs from the bluffs rather than actually on the bluffs. We know that DeWolf was killed and mutilated by warriors slightly above the location of his kill zone. Those very same warriors, and others, would have had the capability of seeing the approach of the pack train from their vantage point.

The question now arises, how far away from the bluffs were the packs? Regardless of the distance, Benteen was somewhere in front of the packs!
If Benteen was able to observe tired and blown men and horses climbing the bluffs climbing for their lives, he was certainly close enough to run interference for the survivors of Reno's command who did not make it.

I'm not suggesting that Benteen through his command away but a foolhardy rush into the Indian fray however, a closer approach while firing their guns would have done much to catch the attention of Indians scalping the dead and whooping it up in glee.

You see there were other objection despite Reno and Benteen's admonition that they could do nothing other than what they did.

[tbw]

Nov 21, 2012 10:20:51 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

I just had a really belated though about the Indian testimony of seeing the packs on the bluffs. It's possible that they saw the packs from the bluffs rather than actually on the bluffs. We know that DeWolf was killed and mutilated by warriors slightly above the location of his kill zone. Those very same warriors, and others, would have had the capability of seeing the approach of the pack train from their vantage point.

The question now arises, how far away from the bluffs were the packs? Regardless of the distance, Benteen was somewhere in front of the packs!
If Benteen was able to observe tired and blown men and horses climbing the bluffs climbing for their lives, he was certainly close enough to run interference for the survivors of Reno's command who did not make it.

I'm not suggesting that Benteen through his command away but a foolhardy rush into the Indian fray however, a closer approach while firing their guns would have done much to catch the attention of Indians scalping the dead and whooping it up in glee.

You see there were other objection despite Reno and Benteen's admonition that they could do nothing other than what they did.

Joe,

There are those who argue that what those Indians observed was Benteen's troops and not the pack train. And perhaps whats needed here is more research as to where each of those who stated that were when they made those observations. I wonder if anyone has ever done that. But going with your original thought, Do you think the Indians you described would also have observed Benteen? And of course, wouldn't Benteen and/or his men also have observed them? And do we have any statements either from Benteen's men or the pack train that could validate this claim?

[joewiggs]

After leaving the Morass, Benteen's command reported hearing the sound of firing coming from the north. drawing their revolvers they quicken their pace in a response to what they heard. at some point, the command arrived at the bottom of the ridge that led to "Reno's Hill, were Benteen reported seeing 12 cavalrymen or so being attacked on the west side of the river by Indians. Reno further reported seeing men slowing climbing the bluffs in that area (east side of the river) which turned out to be portions of Reno's command seeking safety.

[tbw]

Okay, so call me fickle. It ain't easy being old. It may take me a while to get things right, but when I do, watch out....

The idea you proposed Joe, if I'm not mistaken, was that there were already Indians up there, thus, therefore, and somehow, some when or where, they observed the pack train in the valley from the bluffs themselves. Now, if that ain't right, you just say so. But I think, and its just my opinion mind you, that in that particular instance, I would have to say... so that's what Major Reno was throwing his revolver at. Darn your good. And it do solve so much. You might be right. I'll chaw on that one a bit and git back to you on it. Meanwhile, sir Strange if'n you would be so kind, that's been one scene that I would really like to see, you know, Reno throwing his empty revolver at an Indian that was charging down on him from the heights. You up to it?

ps. And Joe, please take this in the spirit it was written, no harm intended... really!

[tbw]

Now that I've gained my composure and my few moments of fame as funny as a box of rocks. Back to business...

There might have been a few of the Indians up there, that was their style of fighting. I'm not sure there were, as Reno's troopers didn't mention it, and by the time Benteen had arrived he nor his men made mention of them being that close. But the fact that they did throw out skirmish lines does lead one to ask your opinion. Did they throw them out there because they did see Indians on the same bluffs they were on? Or was it more of a precautionary measure if the Indians reported in the valley tried to charge them?

There were several instances of possible Indians being up there at that time. One was from McDougall who reported seeing Indians up there and then after charging towards it found out that it was Reno and his men. A legit. question does arise here for your consideration and repose. Did he really see Indians up there, as you suggest? And in the interim, while they were in transit, the Indians vamoosed and a little time later Reno and his men arrived.

The other report was by Benteen's men, made from the location you suggested he was at when he saw Reno's men in retreat. It seemed they too were unsure of whether they were seeing Indians or white men somewhere up there. So I do think it possible that they might have been there as you suggested. If so, how long do you think they were there, and just as important, how many do you think were there and can they be identified?

[joewiggs]

Nov 23, 2012 18:02:51 GMT -5 tbw said:

Okay, so call me fickle. It ain't easy being old. It may take me a while to get things right, but when I do, watch out....

The idea you proposed Joe, if I'm not mistaken, was that there were already Indians up there, thus, therefore, and somehow, some when or where, they observed the pack train in the valley from the bluffs themselves. Now, if that ain't right, you just say so. But I think, and its just my opinion mind you, that in that particular instance, I would have to say... so that's what Major Reno was throwing his revolver at. Darn your good. And it do solve so much. You might be right. I'll chaw on that one a bit and git back to you on it. Meanwhile, sir Strange if'n you would be so kind, that's been one scene that I would really like to see, you know, Reno throwing his empty revolver at an Indian that was charging down on him from the heights. You up to it?

ps. And Joe, please take this in the spirit it was written, no harm intended... really!

You are and always will remain a true gentleman and I share your humor and enjoy your wisdom with much enthusiasm! I agree, I bet Dr. Strange could make a rendition of Reno's gun flying amongst the clouds like no other artist could ever do! How about it Sir?

[tbw]

Nov 23, 2012 20:53:08 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

Nov 23, 2012 18:02:51 GMT -5 tbw said:

Okay, so call me fickle. It ain't easy being old. It may take me a while to get things right, but when I do, watch out....

The idea you proposed Joe, if I'm not mistaken, was that there were already Indians up there, thus, therefore, and somehow, some when or where, they observed the pack train in the valley from the bluffs themselves. Now, if that ain't right, you just say so. But I think, and its just my opinion mind you, that in that particular instance, I would have to say... so that's what Major Reno was throwing his revolver at. Darn your good. And it do solve so much. You might be right. I'll chaw on that one a bit and git back to you on it. Meanwhile, sir Strange if'n you would be so kind, that's been one scene that I would really like to see, you know, Reno throwing his empty revolver at an Indian that was charging down on him from the heights. You up to it?

ps. And Joe, please take this in the spirit it was written, no harm intended... really!

You are and always will remain a true gentleman and I share your humor and enjoy your wisdom with much enthusiasm! I agree, I bet Dr. Strange could make a rendition of Reno's gun flying amongst the clouds like no other artist could ever do! How about it Sir?

I do hope he does.

All levity aside. I think it possible Reno might have been in such a struggle, and as his revolver was empty of what good would it have been had the Indian been about ready to skewer him with a lance, knife or war axe? I would probably have done something similar hoping that one of my men came to my rescue and the empty pistol buying me that hopeful headache time, if I were so lucky it struck where I aimed. I read that the Indians, like all good guerilla fighters, try to kill off the officers. And while I don't have the exact figures immediately at hand, I know the attrition rate was high because of their efforts. And as an aside might easily explain what was seen on LSH where a lot of officers didn't die with their companies. This because as one after another leader died or was incapacitated another went there to take over.


In an earlier post you made mention of Benteen's mileage in reference to the pack train was longer than needed. Also with this you said, "The distances and times of all movements and responses by Reno and Benteen were exaggerated to excuse their failure to render aid in a timely manner." Do you think his estimate of that pack train distance was because he couldn't see it at the time, as he said, or do you think it was because of perhaps other nefarious reasons as you alluded to? The reason I ask that is because it was reported, not just by several of Reno's men, but the Indians as well, that the pack train came from one direction while Benteen came from another.

[joewiggs]

tbw, let me first apologize to you for my propensity to babble on about my theories without first presenting some reason and rational for what i say. For example, I believe that Custer ordered Benteen to not only seek the "valley" but to travel the length of the valley until hr reached a position wherein he would be able to support Reno.

I have no proof whatsoever for this theory. However, I believe it was the non-arrival of Benteen that spooked Reno and the reason for his sending two messengers to Custer. The messengers were designed to ask Custer if he (Reno) should wait for Benteen. When he received no reply and did not see Benteen, he disobeyed orders to charge and entered the timber.

Benteen, after the dust had settled and his part in the battle was being queried, realized that he should have done two things which he failed to do: Send a courier advising Custer what he found or did not find;
Enter the valley from the south and support Reno.

Benteen's decision to do what he thought was best against the orders of his commander and Reno's failure to obey orders would have gotten them both Court Martial if they had survived.

Thus, for the rest of their lives they exaggerated geographical distances, orders, timing, of the battle to achieve the following; Custer issued no orders, no one knew what to do or how to do it, and Reno was left with no option other than to retreat, and Benteen was unable to assist Custer due to his stupidity and brashness to get into the battle.

Again, I hope to present information, in the immediate future, they may shed light on the actual millage of the commands and the orders issued by Custer.

As for Benteen seeing or not seeing the train I truly believe that at no time did he push his command so quickly that he outdistanced the packs. One participant stated (words to this effect), Any nonsense said about the packs being out of sight is nonsense! We kept up with Benteen the whole way!"

I know I have to present my source for the above statement and I hope to do so. In the meantime, thank you so much for your patience and your forbearance!

[tbw]

There's no need to apologize for anything. And that's why I ask the questions I do. Most of which go unanswered. I know their tough and they seem to contradict what you are trying to prove, but as any good theory, they need to stand the test. I'm trying to understand this from a practical approach from what little is known. Most people, including myself have theories about what happened. But that's all they are, and they sure aren't written in stone as some seem to think theirs is.

As for Benteen. I'm wondering here - as the pack train approached the bluffs from a different direction than Benteen and his men did, that the terrain, such as a hill, might have caused him not to see the train. I seem to recall testimony at the court by one of the men stating that they saw the dust of the train, which indicated that they didn't directly observe it. And dust would not have been a true indicator of distance especially as to the true location of where the pack train was at that time.

I guess at this point I need to ask and hopefully you will reply. Do you think Benteen's times and distances in regards to his mission was truthful? And if not, why?

Do you believe Reno when he said the reg't. crossed the divide about 8 am and Benten when he said they crossed it about 8:30 am that morning? And if not, why?

As for the rest, sources are okay, but I'm not a real stickler for such things, you know that. But if you want to provide them, thats okay. Better yet, go back and answer my questions, that would help lots.

[joewiggs]

After gathering all of my source references to aid me in my response to you I suddenly realized that I had trod over this field before, numerous times. After a few minutes of pondering the herculean task before me my stomach began to turn and that old familiar acidic taste began to furiously rise up my gullet, threatening to forcibly spew out in a shower of stomach contents!

I sat back, regrouped and come up with a,hopefully, meaningful response to your two inquiries. In the thread "Benteen:Saint or Sinner" I touched upon numerous resources that refer to the many untruths Benteen resorted to. far from embarrassed, Benteen (in personal letters to others) even crowed about his "testimony" at the inquiry that befuddled Lee and aided in absolving Reno (which in turn condemned Custer) from responsibility.

After testifying that his "orders" were intolerably confusing and had he adhered to them, would have "gone away to Fort Benton" we find a letter a couple days after the battle in which he lay out his complete understanding of his commander's orders!

His testimony in the inquiry were designed to place "all" responsibility of failure on the shoulders of Custer. It is truly a rare condition when one solitary man should be held accountable for the incredible events that occurred that day. Reno and Benteen would have the world believe that Custer gave no ordersthereby created his death and the death of 210 of his comrades. The same man who was made a General at the age of 23 by the U.S. Army

As for the time issues "synchronizing" of watches have been a critical, main stay of military commanders since the invention of watches. For Lt. Wallace to suggest that he "may" have gotten the time wrong as he did not know if his reference of time in his notes were Local or not is ludicrous beyond anything I can imagine.

In conclusion, in the era in which this battle occurred, white American was unable to digest the fact that "savages" could defeat the mighty "7th" Calvary which was not so "mighty" after all. A scapegoat had to be found to wipe this unacceptable humiliation from the annals of history. what better way to do so then to place the burden of guilt on the shoulder of the only senior commanders who died?

At the nadir of his career, Custer was no longer the gallant beau Geste, admired by men and women alike. he was a balding, determined to achieve a great final victory, 36 year old man whom many no longer admired;particularly the lazy,the malcontents, and the young officers . As a result, when the time called upon a "sacrifice" to rebuild the dignity and honor of a military command that had no dignity nor honor, guess who got the door prize?

A poorly trained, conglomeration of soldiers who could not match the furry and willingness to die for their families as did the warriors (at the end) fell apart.

Lastly, "vindictiveness" was the guide line of Benteen who had something bad to say about everyone.

[tbw]

Dec 15, 2012 15:12:14 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

After gathering all of my source references to aid me in my response to you I suddenly realized that I had trod over this field before, numerous times. After a few minutes of pondering the herculean task before me my stomach began to turn and that old familiar acidic taste began to furiously rise up my gullet, threatening to forcibly spew out in a shower of stomach contents!

I sat back, regrouped and come up with a,hopefully, meaningful response to your two inquiries. In the thread "Benteen:Saint or Sinner" I touched upon numerous resources that refer to the many untruths Benteen resorted to. far from embarrassed, Benteen (in personal letters to others) even crowed about his "testimony" at the inquiry that befuddled Lee and aided in absolving Reno (which in turn condemned Custer) from responsibility.

After testifying that his "orders" were intolerably confusing and had he adhered to them, would have "gone away to Fort Benton" we find a letter a couple days after the battle in which he lay out his complete understanding of his commander's orders!

His testimony in the inquiry were designed to place "all" responsibility of failure on the shoulders of Custer. It is truly a rare condition when one solitary man should be held accountable for the incredible events that occurred that day. Reno and Benteen would have the world believe that Custer gave no ordersthereby created his death and the death of 210 of his comrades. The same man who was made a General at the age of 23 by the U.S. Army

As for the time issues "synchronizing" of watches have been a critical, main stay of military commanders since the invention of watches. For Lt. Wallace to suggest that he "may" have gotten the time wrong as he did not know if his reference of time in his notes were Local or not is ludicrous beyond anything I can imagine.

In conclusion, in the era in which this battle occurred, white American was unable to digest the fact that "savages" could defeat the mighty "7th" Calvary which was not so "mighty" after all. A scapegoat had to be found to wipe this unacceptable humiliation from the annals of history. what better way to do so then to place the burden of guilt on the shoulder of the only senior commanders who died?

At the nadir of his career, Custer was no longer the gallant beau Geste, admired by men and women alike. he was a balding, determined to achieve a great final victory, 36 year old man whom many no longer admired;particularly the lazy,the malcontents, and the young officers . As a result, when the time called upon a "sacrifice" to rebuild the dignity and honor of a military command that had no dignity nor honor, guess who got the door prize?

A poorly trained, conglomeration of soldiers who could not match the furry and willingness to die for their families as did the warriors (at the end) fell apart.

Lastly, "vindictiveness" was the guide line of Benteen who had something bad to say about everyone.

Something that has always bothered me was the route Benteen took on his "pitch in" mission. And I guess the reasons for that was the well accepted version that this mission was 'left of their main direction of travel' which at the time would have been generally westward leading. This of course trying to establish his priors worth repeating to arrival on the bluffs; and the possible whereabouts of the pack train's travels at the same time. Now I think every student and scholar has been mystified by this routes assumed direction as it makes Custer look, well lets say more nutty nuts than anything else done on that day. Sure, we all know the standard responses as to what Custer's intention might have been concerning this. That 'feeling left' mentioned by Terry in his letter of instruction being the one thrown out there the most. But on the face of it, looking back and reflecting on what Custer knew at the time, why would he have done that? He'd been to the top of the mountain, he'd heard, and I think believed his Indian scouts and guides as to what they had observed, so he knew the general whereabouts of his quarry. I've been to that particular mountain and I can tell you that anything to the left of that trail would have been seen from such heights. The tepee's, had there been some that direction, couldn't have been on the sides of the drainages without them being detected from up there. The whole left field (looking towards ford A) vision was unobscured. Had there been Indians there, their horses would have been observable, their smoke from their camp fires observable. Every feasible sign up there told him there were no Indians in that direction. Yet we have those for certain orders from Custer to Benteen, as Benteen himself said (to paraphrase), he was sent to look up some Indians, and the orders? To pitch into them and contact Custer once he had. These orders were definite. There's nothing scouting about them, and yet there were no Indians the way Custer sent him?

Do you buy this line? Or do you have a different idea that might rescue Custer's reputation and further denigrate Benteen's?

Lastly. The mileage Benteen stated for the overnight forced march up through his distance estimate from and to the LBH river seem fairly close. In the letter to his wife he estimated the distance from (Busby) to the place where they stopped for coffee at about 8 miles. He estimated from there to where they had officers call as being another 8 miles. And from there to the LBH river yet another 8 miles, 24 miles in all, not bad considering the distance as the crow flies in each instance as being very close to that mileage. At the court of Inquiry he estimated the first distance at about 10 miles, the 2nd, where the officers call was, as 6 to 7 miles. Either way, where that officers call was seemed to be at right around 16 to perhaps 17 miles from (Busby). F. Girard said that from where they camped for coffee to the divide was about 5 miles. The mileage over the divide splits on Benteen's estimates from 1 to 3 miles over it. He said in the letter to his wife it was yet another 4 miles from there to where he received his orders to go to the 'left'. Question is, do these mileages seem right to you, or do you have your own to offer as to what was going on?