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Post by tbw on Jan 9, 2010 12:33:12 GMT -5
Perhaps no single question was ever so thoroughly missed as this one. Was that really the Pack Train on the bluffs that the hostile warriors claimed they observed when Reno retreated? Many today rationalize that this was Benteen's battalion. But, was it? Could so many warriors have been so wrong?
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Post by joewiggs on Jan 14, 2010 20:27:17 GMT -5
I don't know the answer to such an "explosive" question but, I must say this; rightly or wrongly I have more faith in the testimony of the "warriors" over "white" testimony any day of the week.
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Post by tbw on Jan 14, 2010 21:19:05 GMT -5
I was perusing through Hardorff's two books, "Cheyenne Memories" and "Lakota Recollections" and I can't believe how many times those warriors state that it was the "pack train" that they saw coming on the bluffs at the time of Reno's retreat. Now I ask you, how could they have been so wrong? I don't think they were. They stated what they observed, "the pack train" with horses and mules laden with "PACKS"! If it had been "another bunch of troops" as in Custer's bunch of troops coming to attack them, would not they have stated it that way, just as they did Custer's bunch of troops going to attack the other end? Then why, if it was Benteen's troops, would they not have stated it that same way for Benteen's men, instead of "mistaking them for the Pack train" as so many claim it to be today?
Some can claim and blame the Indians for 'ignorance' back in those days, but I think this one carries it a bit too far.
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Post by joewiggs on Mar 5, 2010 13:58:08 GMT -5
It is absolutely amazing how facts can be placed right in front of you and still be missed! I have both of those books, have read them but, I missed the connect. Needless to say, you are very correct!!! The Indians had a basic nomenclature for all the soldiers. This bunch here, another bunch there, etc. They , however, specifically stated the "pack trains" in the instances you have referred to. If anyone, in good conscious, can claim that the warriors just didn't know what they were talking about they need to check their ethnocentrism's at the door.
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Post by joewiggs on Oct 17, 2010 9:46:51 GMT -5
Dennis, I've just this moment allowed myself to realize the critical point you have suggested in this question you have proposed. Not only do I agree with you but, I think there is a substantial reason why the Indian accounts of seeing the pack train have been discounted. Would not their testimony prove that Reno's claim that he could not respond to the aid of Custer sooner that he did blow up right in his face?
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cinnamon
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Post by cinnamon on Oct 23, 2010 6:27:49 GMT -5
Okay, but we have Martini that reached Benteen with the message. he state that when he met Benteen, the pack train was one mile back of of the company. He state also that once re-started, the company was faster than the pack train and left it even more in the rear.
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cinnamon
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Post by cinnamon on Oct 23, 2010 6:49:02 GMT -5
Martini also state that when they arrived on reno hill, the Reno's battalion was still retreating, and they had to wait 15 minuts to see the first mules coming on. So, indians are not so wrong in stating what you said. The battle was still going on (the "buffalo hunting") and the pack train was just coming. The complete pack train arrival lasted 1 hour. But the ammos were the first to arrive just 15 minuts after Benteen met Reno...
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Post by moderator on Oct 23, 2010 8:33:55 GMT -5
Food for thought.... Cinnamon, If the pack train was only 1 mile back as Martini stated from Benteen's troop at the time Martini meets Benteen, then how come it takes the Pack Train more than an hour to go about 1 mile? What is clear, I think, is that from what we know - Benteen and his men were supposedly within a half mile of the river when Martini arrived with his message. That would put the Pack train about a mile and a half from the river. Now, from what both Mathey & McDougall had stated at the RCOI, at about this time; they see "men on the bluffs" (who they thought were hostiles) AND Mcdougall ordered them to charge that position. Who was going faster? Benteen and his men - Or McDougall and his company of charging troops? And how did Mcdougall state that charge took place?... Where were the pack animals in that charge? While Benteen asserts that he and his men hurried there, the Indians tell a much different story... That Pack Train was already on the bluffs before Benteen and his men ever arrived there!!! In other words McDougalls charge took him to the bluffs much - much faster than Benteen to that position, where ever that was - that the Indians observed the pack animals on the bluffs right before Reno's retreat... And that was one of the reasons they didn't pursue Reno as he did retreat. [Side note. Was it possible that Reno spotted that Pack train on the bluffs, and that because he observed them there, that - that was the reason he ordered the retreat? A never before asked question, neither here nor there, nor at the RCOI, may I add.... ] Can Martini's story about how far back the Pack Train was from Benteen at the time he met Benteen be confirmed? Benteen himself confirms it at the RCOI. Benteen stated mileages and distances from the Morass and Tepee to A ford. There were others in his command who seemed to disagaree with the mileages, but when anyone who is serious about this gets down to map browsing while reading, it becomes abundantly clear - what they were talking about. Benteen's mileage from The Morass to A ford was about 4 1/2 miles. He stated that he met Martini about half way to A ford, which if A ford was correct would have been about 2 and 1/4th miles. I guess a mile and a quarter off is isn't too bad, and one supposes that it could be reconciled in some small way, especially since Benteen claimed the Pack Train at that time was 7 miles back! Hmmmm..... Doesn't sound right does it? Again especially since he and his men had observed that Pack Train within a mile of that Morass as they themselves approached it, AND especially since he and his men knew and some even reported the Pack MULES "plunging into the Morass" as they left it!!! [As a side note... Anyone ever wonder how fast a thirsty mule can travel when it smells water?] 7 miles indeed, Benteen himself knew, that - that pack train was no further than 2 1/4th miles behind him at the time he met Martini, and in fact, it was much-much closer, and just as Martini stated it was!!!! Anyone up for a game of BENTEEN'S CHARADES?
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Post by stumblingbear on Oct 23, 2010 15:36:24 GMT -5
I have always suspected the thinking behind Reno's run to the hills. Why that specific location instead of returning to the original crossing? Why take horses through a fast moving stream and up steep hills? When Reno fled, he scrambled towards something he would have seen as a place of safety. A place where someone, anyone could help him and save his sorry skin. The pack train certainly would have been seen from the timber.
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cinnamon
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Post by cinnamon on Oct 23, 2010 16:44:01 GMT -5
Adm, Martin state that the last mule arrived 1 hour after. The ammo packs instead arrived 15 minuts after Benteen arrival on the hill. So the indian statements are right. Because when Benteen arrived, the Reno's retreat was still going on. The last mule, arrived 1 hour later. Martini said: "First arriving were the ammos, 15 minuts later".
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Post by stumblingbear on Oct 23, 2010 18:52:54 GMT -5
Hmmmm...I see your point.
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cinnamon
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Post by cinnamon on Oct 24, 2010 10:23:43 GMT -5
Also John M Ryan, company M, claim that as soon as they were on Reno hill Benteen was up there quickly followed by the ammos.
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Post by tbw on Feb 1, 2011 13:03:10 GMT -5
One other misperception about the pack trains was how they were handled. There were only about 12 packers for every 50 or so pack animals, this is a proven fact. No other people were hired to tend to the packs, whether in camp or on the move. The misperception? Quite simply, the pack train animals were trained to follow the regiment, which they did, the packers merely herded them and even then it usually wasn't required. There wasn't a one-on-one relationship packer leading one pack animal. This was a European (perhaps hussar) example that simply didn't exist on the open and spacious American Plains. Does anyone still think the Indians didn't know what a pack train was?
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Post by joewiggs on Feb 2, 2011 14:14:51 GMT -5
Sadly there are some who believe that Native Americans knew nothing more than to hunt, beat their women, and kill. Happily such people diminish as times goes by.
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Post by moderator on Feb 15, 2011 8:32:20 GMT -5
Where does the notion come from that it took an hour and a half for the pack train to arrive at Reno's position on the bluffs? People spout this stuff as if it was gospel, its not. What really bothers me is the notion that the Indians could have been wrong in identifying that same pack train as already being on the bluffs as something that it was not. They may have been uneducated, by our standards, they may have been savage, by our standards, but they were not deaf, dumb, blind or stupid. Oh sure, lets make them see something that wasn't there, Benteen and his men, yup, that should do it, surely they were quote, mistaken; Surely they had to be, right? Its crap like this that gives this battle more myth, more legend, more lore than it deserves. And its because of these two salient factors that most people base their theories of myth upon. Why myth? Because there is nothing enabling in either of those two. If the quote "Indians were wrong" not just with this, but with a lot of other observations, not the least of which is the actual start time when Reno began his charge, 12 noon, then it disables on the one hand and enables on the other, things that should never have been, and, never was. But, the problem doesn't stop just there. Its a never ending vicious cycle of unbelievable stupidity. One where not believing what most said as being untrue. A mistrust born of sheer ignorance. And one that relies upon but a few, who for one reason or another, did not know. Each person does bring a different perspective and thought analysis to the discussion. Each has a value all its own. Some just share information, however convoluted, for whatever self serving need. And some actually believe the convoluted and prefer it, rather than admitting others better knowledge. There is a long list of others, too many to go into here, but it does exemplify human nature. A nature all those men who fought at the LBH possessed and we fail to realize. For instance, how far does a horse have to go before its quote, "blown"? Would the answer appear to be 10 miles from the divide to the LBH? Or, would the answer appear to be yet another 5 to 6 miles from there to where Custer fought and died? Or would horses be quote "blown" after a half hours rest while Reno's troops fought and then ran about 2 to 3 miles? Different perspective or something else? Reality provides the answers to all of this, it just takes a human with a brain to see what that difference is. And that difference is what began this post; what the Indians did or didn't observe. And reality doesn't require opinion. It requires that we think for ourselves and not let others tell us what, in reality, was or was not reasonably possible. And about 20 men herding 100 or so animals loaded with packs just isn't the same as 120 men all mounted and not one pack animal with loaded packs on their backs in sight. The facts in this case were convoluted for one reason or another. And it never took an hour and a half to get the pack train to where Reno 'first struck the bluffs'. Because, that pack train, just as the Indians said, was already on those bluffs as Reno retreated. And just as Lt. Hare said, he was only gone about 20 minutes to get them and return. They were "on the bluffs", just as the Indians said, about a mile or so from Reno, just far enough for Lt. Hare to take about 10 minutes to go there and about the same to return, and it took no longer than that. so, what was that hour and a half all about? Well... how long did Weir's expedition take? See any correlation? The Indians were not wrong, its just that the white men spoke with forked tongue and they still do, AND whats more they still believe it.
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