Benteen: Saint or Sinner

[joewiggs]

Yes, it would have been greatly disadvantageous for Reno or Benteen to have admitted that they heard the sounds of battle and did not respond. Very disadvantageous! As a result, they became temporarily deaf.

[Cutter]

Good site about Benteen and baseball.

infinitecardset.blogspot.com/2011/06/82-frederick-benteen-baseball-custers.html

[strange]

Oct 10, 2011 9:14:33 GMT -5 Cutter said:

Good site about Benteen and baseball.

infinitecardset.blogspot.com/2011/06/82-frederick-benteen-baseball-custers.html

Very good indeed about that the Baseball facts but a bit prejudiced and inaccurate against poor Custer on a lot of everything else. They neglect to mention that Benty hated nearly everyone he ever served under.

One interesting thing here "Custer didn't have much respect for heavy boozers". I suppose no one told this writer about brother Tom Custer and friend Myles Keogh!

[Cutter]

Yup, I said about baseball, nothing more. I don't believe there's a"one stop shop" article that would "touch all the bases".LOL.

[whitebull]

Benteen was pretty good at baseball. He was pretty good at something else too -lying!

On Reno's hill, general Terry ask the officers how many Indians did they believed they had faced. Everyone said, generally, 1500.

Benteen said, "I have been accustomed to seeing divisions of Calvary during the war, and from my observations I would say that there were from fifteen to eighteen hundred warriors." Pretty convincing Huh!

Seven days later Benteen wrote a letter to his wife and said:
"Three thousand warrior were there."Later he upped the ante to over 8,000 warriors.

Hell, every body's got the right to change their mind don't they?

[joewiggs]

To hate and despise any one as Benteen hated Custer is beyound rationality. I could understand it better if Custer had committed some horrific act against Benteen but he did not.

I don't fault Benteen for any actions he did or did not commit as much as the outrageous lies he spoke after the battle!

[crazycanuck]

The die was cast with Terry's orders where it is written to Custer that he may depart from the orders here "unless you see sufficient reason for departing from them". Custer had a good idea how many Indians were in the LBH from the Crows Nest hours before the Weir Point or Sharpshooters Ridge sightings. The slippery slope of Custers LBH incompetence begins from the Crows Nest with giving Benteen the lead then taking it away and sending him left.

[crazycanuck]

Furthermore Custer starts to see himself in star like Wild Bill Hicock of a way.He was determined to up his star power with the LBH excursion with the gathering or routing of the Indians,whatever it took.......bring it on Indians if you want and they did. He rolled the dice(departing from the orders) and he is the main reason why it failed,not Benteen,not Reno,not Sherman,Sheridan,or Grant but Custer.

[tbw]

Oct 17, 2011 6:09:32 GMT -5 crazycanuck said:

Furthermore Custer starts to see himself in star like Wild Bill Hicock of a way.He was determined to up his star power with the LBH excursion with the gathering or routing of the Indians,whatever it took.......bring it on Indians if you want and they did. He rolled the dice(departing from the orders) and he is the main reason why it failed,not Benteen,not Reno,not Sherman,Sheridan,or Grant but Custer.

I have no problem with your assertions. It is the way this battle has been interpreted for well over 135 years or so. And I think you have a perfect right to believe what you want to.

Before taking on the responsibility of trying, one way or another, to give answer to this, why do you feel Custer departed from his orders?

[tbw]

Oct 17, 2011 5:56:26 GMT -5 crazycanuck said:

The die was cast with Terry's orders where it is written to Custer that he may depart from the orders here "unless you see sufficient reason for departing from them". Custer had a good idea how many Indians were in the LBH from the Crows Nest hours before the Weir Point or Sharpshooters Ridge sightings. The slippery slope of Custers LBH incompetence begins from the Crows Nest with giving Benteen the lead then taking it away and sending him left.

Custer had a good idea how many Indians were in the LBH from the Crows Nest hours before the Weir Point or Sharpshooters Ridge sightings.

Thanks to you CC, I've done further research along these lines, and I think your initial impression was correct, that he, Custer, didn't know. Sure he was told by Bloody Knife and Bouyer about what they had ascertained. He was also told of the herds of horses that were told to him as "worms in the grass" by the Indians from that distance. But there was an unknown here. The bluffs laying east of the river effectively blocked any sighting of their encampments on the other side of it. The distance was too far to look over those high bluffs, even from the Crows Nest. The best sightings from there, assuming they, or someone, was at the highest point at the Crows Nest, would have been roughly somewhere in the vicinity of the present interstate and beyond. Anything closer to the river and those bluffs couldn't have been seen. There may have been a very small gap, between the bluffs, which again blocked their view on both sides of MTF. This sighting would shoot through an area roughly an 1/8th of a mile wide that might have been observed beyond the river. But it wasn't enough, even if fires had been present, to get a good read on the number or size of that encampment. I've always thought that Custer, maybe Varnum or the scouts did see something there, and this could have very possibly been the reason Custer went down the right bank.

There just isn't reliable evidence to suggest that Custer believed his Indian guides and scouts and what they observed from the Crows Nest. In fact, there is ample evidence for just the reverse. Benteen's statement to the court being one of the best. I'm not sure what Benteen would have to gain by saying that Custer didn't believe the Indian encampment wasn't there. And if it was the truth, which it appears to be, that, with the previous scouts and guides statements not being believed, as well. might very well have set him up for what did transpire later.

I have searched in vain for statements from Varnum that he reported anything he saw to Custer before leaving with Reno. He said he saw plenty of Indians but not any Indian camp. Even that might have aided Custer in his decisions, but even that isn't a given at this point. And until it can be corroborated, one way or the other, we just cant go assuming that Varnum told Custer anything. Another grand error if it occurred, and which at this time appears to have happened. The talk between them at the time being of Coffee coolers instead of tending to business.

Benteen's mission, whether you choose to believe it or not, was as he himself described it to the court. He had nothing to loose by stating what he did. In fact quite the opposite. He virtually saved Reno's butt by saying what he did. They were there to find out the truth about what happened and they did. Benteen screwed up big time and they knew it. But they couldn't do a damn thing to him because he was under immunity to prosecution for what he testified to, Reno wasn't. And that's the reason his answers are more obfuscated than even Benteen's.

There is every reason to believe that Custer upon discovering the size and location of that village did what he need to do, albeit to late. He recalled Benteen to his position. He sent word to the Pack Train to get the ammo packs forward as fast as possible and never mind anything falling off. He also, whether you choose to believe if or not sent word to Reno to extricate himself and affect a junction with him, Custer, downstream. He has been berated for years for not keeping his regiment together in the face of such odds, yet that was exactly what he was trying to get his junior officers to do. Get the lead out and get together with him. That they didn't do that was the reason for the Reno Court of Inquiry. Whether or not it would have made any difference is what must be determined.

Custer had to do what any commander in that situation would have done. He sent messenger to every subordinate directing them to gather on his position downstream. Now whether that was right or wrong, can only be determined by what he did and when, and what they did and when. That Benteen chose to stop and not complete his 2nd orders from Custer didn't help his cause one bit. That Reno didn't immediately see the need for continuing the struggle with those of Benteens and his own troops who were able, meant what to the success or failure of that mission and of the last orders imparted to them by a commander that had every faith that they would do as he requested them to do.

[crazycanuck]

Good info TB however Custer was to thoroughly scout to the south and not let any Indians escape in that direction. Custer did not do this. Custer was suppose to be in a coordinated attack, meeting Terry/Gibbon on the 26th. He did not do that. Instead he gambled, picked up a fresh trail and hurriedly(marching in the night) led his troops to disaster. He failed because he didn't follow the orders.

[tbw]

"Lieut. Col. G.A. Custer, 7th Cavalry

Colonel:

The Brigadier-General Commanding directs that, as soon as your regiment can be made ready for the march, you will proceed up the Rosebud in pursuit of the Indians whose trail was discovered by Major Reno a few days since. It is, of course, impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and were it not impossible to do so, the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy. He will however, indicate to you his own views of what your action should be, and he desires that you should conform to them unless you shall see sufficient reason for departing from them. He thinks that you should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken of leads. Should it be found (as it appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Horn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn towards the Little Horn, feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the possibility of the escape of the Indians to the south or southeast by passing around your left flank.

The column of Colonel Gibbon is now in motion for the mouth of the Big Horn. As soon as it reaches that point it will cross the Yellowstone and move up at least as far as the forks of the Big and Little Horns. Of course its further movements must be controlled by circumstances as they arise, but it is hoped that the Indians, if upon the Little Horn, may be so nearly inclosed by the two coumns that their escape will be impossible. The Department Commander desires that on your way up the Rosebud you should thoroughly examine the upper part of Tullock's Creek, and that you should endeavor to send a scout through to Colonel Gibbon's Column, with information of the results of your examination. The lower part of the creek will be examined by a detachment from Colonel Gibbon's command.

The supply steamer will be pushed up the Big Horn as far as the forks if the river is found to be navigable for that distance, and the Department Commander, who will accompany the Column of Colonel Gibbon, desires you to report to him there not later than the expiration of the time for which your troops are rationed, unless in the meantime you receive further orders.

It was signed by Terry's AAAG.




Questions arise:

A. Did Custer really disobey these orders?

B. If he deviated from them (using the language as provided), did he have sufficient reason for doing it?

C. Were these orders enhanced or changed in any way after Terry issued them?

These orders, as stated, really do provide Custer with a lot of latitude in his decision making. The binding clauses you bring up do however give one pause to examine the document closer. I'm quite sure military commanders examining that document today, may indeed key in on the very clauses of that letter of instruction you did. Terry quote "desires" that he should conform to them unless for some unforeseen reason Custer could or had to deviate from them because of circumstance. Seems pretty Iron clad. Do this 'Terry's stated intent' and you damn well should have a very good reason if you don't.

Both Terry's and Custer's mission was to force the hostile Indians to return to the reservation. And seemingly by Terry's letter the plan seems to have been to trap them between all the forces to converge on their suspected position, which by all indications they knew was exactly where it was, somewhere in the vicinity of where Custer caught up to them. And I most certainly can see your point CC. If Custer had obeyed the stated intent of Terry's letter of instruction the Indians may have been caught between the to converging columns, one from up river, Custer's, and one from down river Terry/Gibbon's. This isn't missed by me or by many students who have studied this aspect of the campaign.

Lets take this a step further. What if the Indians wasn't where they were found to be? By this, I mean what if they had gone further up the river, rather than stopped where they did? (just one scenario). And by all indications, I don't think any of them knew whether or not that had happened. It must have occurred to Custer that if that did happen, he would be there first and without the support of Terry/Gibbon's column and still would have to fight them alone, that is if he followed the stated intent of Terry's instruction. Also remember these same hostiles had attacked Crook's force days before in the area/direction Custer was supposed to have gone. There's every reason to believe that he, Custer may have been discovered and attacked the same way on his way to complete those "intents". A fact Custer also I think anticipated when he made the decision to do what he did. And he knew as well as we do today that his regiment was ill equipped to deal with an all out attack like that from the hostiles. He was moving light and fast, and as the letter of instruction indicated, "in pursuit of the hostiles". Keep this in mind because it was in the first sentence of that letter of instruction. In spite of all desires, wishes and intents, it was Custer's mission to pursue them first and foremost.

The reverse of the above, of course, is what if the Indians had gone on downstream, perhaps in search of better game, they did after all need a lot of meat to feed all their people. This too wasn't known by either Terry or Custer. In this instance, if that had occurred, Terry and Gibbon's column would have gotten there first. Again, this must have weighed on Custer's mind. While Terry's column was better equipped to deal with attacking indians, the ferocity of their attacks and the intensity might have made short work, just like it did for Custer's failed attack. What if this had happened, does anyone believe that Custer would have been disobeying the spirit of Terry's letter of instruction had Custer followed that trail, discovered that they weren't there and instead had picked up their downstream trail and had gotten to Terry/Gibbon's battle site before they were overwhelmed. And instead, if they were still following the intent of the letter? All of these things and more had to have been in Custer's thoughts as he made the call to do what he did.

Some students most certainly feel this is a mine field no one can safely negotiate. And to some extent I agree. The key phrase in the whole letter, along with "in pursuit of the hostiles" was this one: "It is, of course, impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and were it not impossible to do so, the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy." Who is to say with all the above he had to consider, that what he did do "when nearly in contact" wasn't the right choice. Terry never did publicly decry Custer for doing what he did. There are some rumblings from the clergyman that buried him, like it might have been a death bed confession, but even Terry would have had regrets for not giving Custer a more precise instruction "when nearly in contact with the enemy" and probably felt some responsibility was his, even to his grave he must have thought, what could I have done different? He didn't, and because he didn't give Custer more precise orders, nothing could ever quell his misgivings, another fact he also knew unto his death.

[tbw]

An addendum to the former post. (Otherwise it would be too long and might get rather boring.)

Few of us ever try to fill Custer's shoes in this matter and place the burden upon our own shoulders knowing only the information he had at hand. All of my previous post had to have been gone over in Custer's mind before the scouts discovered the village in the late evening hours of the 24th, so we can't merely dismiss any of it as he surely didn't.

Now then Custer's scouts come back in the late evening hours of the 24th and announce that they've discovered the village at the end of the trail along the LBH river. Now what do we know that Custer knew? Only that and nothing we know from hindsight? In the early morning hours of the 25th after they had marched throughout the night to reach a vicinity near the Crows Nest, Custer had a well recorded conversation with one of his Indian scouts. During that conversation, Custer stated his "intent", which is always overlooked, we can't do this and rightfully shouldn't. His intent as he stated to that scout, and others who witnessed it, was to lay over somewhere near that position and stay concealed until the 26th, thus following the "intent" of Terry's letter of instruction. To be where he needed to be where and when Terry expected him to be. And to fulfill his "pursuit" instructions he didn't feel the need to go further south as the Indian village had been discovered, which would have taken him off of his pursuit path. "Circumstances" beyond Custer's control intervened and prevented Custer from fulfilling his "intent". And again "what if's" are bound to creep into this equation as well. Custer can't be blamed for external developments beyond his control, whether it was simply a cracker box which loosened and fell off during the night or a party of hunting hostiles on their way to the buffalo hunting grounds accidentally happening upon their position, which in Varnum's testimony to the court did happen. Custer at that time didn't know whether these Indians were hostile or not. He had no way of knowing this, and unless one of them, who wasn't hostile, presented themselves to indicate this, he wouldn't know and surely had to assume any such discovery to be one made by the hostiles. He did, as would any commander in such a situation, what came after destroyed any hope for his "intent" and triggered Terry's other "intent" clause "when nearly in contact with the enemy" .

I can't see anything that indicated that Custer disobeyed any "intent", orders or otherwise in what he did do. Some might feel that he needed to have sent Herendeen through with information. I think there was two thoughts to this that some don't think of. One being that in those same early morning hours Varnum and the scouts did observe the hostiles hunting buffalo over in the Tulloch's fork area, and quite naturally, it would have been dangerous for any white man to have ventured anywhere near this area AND any area between the then known location of the village and where they were hunting. Face it, Custer wasn't going to send that man into imminent danger. And he didn't have enough information the evening before other than that the had discovered it, nothing of how that village was arranged (ie how big) or whether there was more than one, as at the Washita, all of them strung out over several miles, one from the other. There just wasn't enough info to send back.

The other thought on this was he might have been planning to send him back when he found out more information about the village(s). Which such a lay-over until the 26th would have afforded him the opportunity to have done. By the time Custer did find out about the village(s), sadly by his own observation and not Benteen's, it was way to late to send anyone as he needed every man he could muster and Herendeen wasn't with him when he discovered the "big village", he was with Reno.

No matter what we think of Terry's letter of Instruction, one thing is very clear. Custer was to "pursue" the indians until he found them. To revisit his instructions, "He thinks that you should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken of leads. Should it be found (as it appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Horn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward..." Custer would have done exactly that had the Indians and their village not been discovered on the evening of the 24th. Then at that time he was no longer following, to quote Terry, "the trail" but the Indians themselves, a definite target. The trail itself was an indefinite target and Terry didn't want him to follow it if the Indians weren't there. It would have been Custer's butt had he not sent out those scouts to find them (where the trail led). So no it wasn't wrong to send out the scouts to see if they were there, they were and Custer wasn't necessarily following "the trail" to some dead end suspected source to nowhere. But he was following it in "pursuit" of a known target, the Indians he was ordered to find and pursue.

[crazycanuck]

Thank-you TB for the response but I believe Custer from the day he left for the mission when he said "I will not(wait)" and later saying the 7th would beat the Indians "in a day" HAD NO INTENTION OF WAITING AND COORDINATING AN ATTACK WITH OTHERS IF HE COULD GET TO THE PLACE FIRST(he got what he wished for....funny how that doesn't work out so well for us even today)
With respect to Herendeen not being dispatched with the information change, it is his job and Custers to relay information to Terry no matter the danger. They are grown professional men. As far as Indians in the hills and packs falling off and thinking that the advantage of surprise is lost I don't think so. There are Indians all over the place like you say buffalo hunting etc,stealing horses etc.
Bottom line for me is Custer got what he asked for(get there first and handle it myself)) and his winning streak came to an unfortunate end.

I have a question when do you think Custer said $%^! this is not going well (question),Luce Ridge.Now don't tell me LSH with pearl handled pistol firing and don't tell me it never crossed his mind that it is not going well because he is to busy of a commander thinking how I'm going to get myself er I mean my troops out of this one.

[tbw]

Oct 19, 2011 6:12:28 GMT -5 crazycanuck said:

Thank-you TB for the response but I believe Custer from the day he left for the mission when he said "I will not(wait)" and later saying the 7th would beat the Indians "in a day" HAD NO INTENTION OF WAITING AND COORDINATING AN ATTACK WITH OTHERS IF HE COULD GET TO THE PLACE FIRST(he got what he wished for....funny how that doesn't work out so well for us even today)
With respect to Herendeen not being dispatched with the information change, it is his job and Custers to relay information to Terry no matter the danger. They are grown professional men. As far as Indians in the hills and packs falling off and thinking that the advantage of surprise is lost I don't think so. There are Indians all over the place like you say buffalo hunting etc,stealing horses etc.
Bottom line for me is Custer got what he asked for(get there first and handle it myself)) and his winning streak came to an unfortunate end.

I have a question when do you think Custer said $%^! this is not going well (question),Luce Ridge.Now don't tell me LSH with pearl handled pistol firing and don't tell me it never crossed his mind that it is not going well because he is to busy of a commander thinking how I'm going to get myself er I mean my troops out of this one.

I do understand and respect your position on this issue. And I understand you might think he'd be a bit "zealous" as Terry himself described some of Custer's character traits. I really can't see any commander who had over 600 men in his charge just going off willy-nilly and jeopardizing all their lives over over something that could have gotten them all killed. All meaning all 600 men. The way you have described the events that lead up to that battle, that is the distinct impression I get.

As for your belief that he had no intention of quote "waiting" and/or "coordinating" any attack, the proof of that error in judgment has been given you. Custer was going to lay over until the 26 and wait for Terry. But circumstances (most certainly beyond his control) intervened before he could sequester his troops to make that happen. Try as you might, you simply can't blame Custer for a cracker box coming loose or for something the Indians did do quite innocently on their own. You could blame the Indians for sticking their noses where it didn't belong or for the guy who let that cracker box slip off, but you can't blame Custer for something that was clearly beyond his control.

As for Herendeen, I'll stand by my statement, which also ties into another reason to believe he, Custer, had every intent at laying over until the 26th. quote:

"The other thought on this was he might have been planning to send him back when he found out more information about the village(s). Which such a lay-over until the 26th would have afforded him the opportunity to have done. By the time Custer did find out about the village(s), sadly by his own observation and not Benteen's, it was way to late to send anyone as he needed every man he could muster and Herendeen wasn't with him when he discovered the "big village", he was with Reno."

As for your question, and I thank you for that, I think we both gain better understanding of the other position by asking questions. My thought is this. And it's only opinion, and a very loose one at that. One you well know can't be written in stone or wasn't likely to be revealed by the few statements that filtered out to us by the few remaining survivors of his battalion.

I'm not a guy that likes to bandy around with these types of propositions, nor am I likely to engage in the semantics of quote, "where" it was by any definite means, such as any 'named' location. Because I think these have been mistaken over the years, and don't feel the need to keep repeating those same mistakes, which to me translates as perpetuating the myths. Instead I'm going to state an event, and no don't take that as "ohhh, I see, it was then at (a named location)" because I'll deny that based solely upon that location and not the event itself.

The event of choice for me was when he went to that location where he looked down upon the 'big village' and then proceeded to look around for Benteen and spotted him and the pack train in near proximity, my personal choice for that particular location was the watering place (don't get excited yet) and said "Holy crap, what the hell is he doing back there" That's when he realized Benteen had failed in his mission to send him that needed info he had been sent to find out. This information need have been known LONG BEFORE Custer had ever arrived at that observation location.

[About the watering hole/morass. NO, NO and NO, I don't believe for a moment it is where most if not all students think or say it is today. It wasn't. And that can be proven too. And NO, I'm not doing that here.]

And finally.

Terry gave a lot of thought to his expedition and how things should have developed. There's no doubt, after Reno's failed expedition at scouting for the Indians, and finding that trail Terry mentions in his letter of instruction to Custer, that he had given a lot of thought to the possibility of either he or Custer getting to the Indians before the other. He even acknowledges the impossibility of coordinating such an attack in that letter. This is where that trail and its focal point became ever more important to him. What if Custer follows it? I don't doubt for a minute that Terry did consult Bouyer or even Bloody knife in an attempt to understand where they thought those Indians would have gone to. The freshness of that trail would have also indicated that their camp could have been anywhere within a 50 to 60 mile radius of where Reno's excursion intersected it, that to include either, up or down the Little Big Horn as already postulated. And he came up with what you and I now see. And there is no doubt in my mind, that at that conference aboard the steamer, Terry fully explained all of this to his subordinates to his and their satisfaction and understanding. Custer understood those orders and was following them to the letter and circumstances beyond his control intervened and caused what you and I now see, it was, as simple as that.