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Post by whitebull on May 7, 2011 19:09:06 GMT -5
Here's one for the forum to chew the fat on:"according to one of his correspondents, the illustrious captain later said that after the regiment reached the Little Big Horn, all packs except those carrying ammunition were of no further use. At that point, Benteen said,it would have made sense to abandon the mule train." "To Hell With Honor" Larry Sklenar, page238, footnote(57). Funny ain't it? Benteen didn't realize this when the battle was on and he and everyone else believed that protecting the pack train was a #1 priority even though repeated messages from Custer stated that he did need them. Ain't hindsight sweet? I wish I could vote twice against the crook!  |
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Post by joewiggs on May 13, 2011 19:31:40 GMT -5
What you have pointed out is the all too human tendency to paint as virtuous a self-portrait as possible when ones own actions are being questioned. The other side of that coin is the personal,equal tenacity utilized to trash the actions of those whose very actions may give credence to a negative perspective of your doings.
The very moment Benteen realized that Custer's command had been wiped out, he realized that his participation, or lack thereof, would come under terrific scrutiny. His false impression of Custer winging through the village slaying Indians right and left proved to be a terrible false one and left the Major holding the proverbial"bag."
Thus, the allegations of no plans, hearing no weapons fire coming from the battlefield, and Custer hopping off to join Terry (among many others) found birth.
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Post by joewiggs on May 14, 2011 9:55:43 GMT -5
Of all the self serving statements made by Benteen, regarding his assignment in the battle, the following stands out:
"From the orders I started out with, he (Custer) could not possibly have known where to find me within ten or fifteen miles."
When the good Captain uttered such remarks his audience possessed no familiarity with the terrain he transversed and, therefore, did not comprehend how misleading the statements were.
There were many elevation point through out the area where the separated commands could take note of each others positions by observing the distinct dust trials that each command emitted from the movement of hundreds of horses and men.
An example, when Kanipe received an oral message from Capt. Custer he was told to take the back trail until until he reached Benteen's command which he ultimately did. Capt. Custer also informed kanipe, "If you see Benteen, tell him to come on."
Minutes later, Martini was sent to the rear with a specific message for Benteen;a written order.
Also, during the separation of the two commands Custer sent two couriers to Benteen with information.
This information reveals three factors; initially the exact location of Benteen was unknown but still generally surmised, two couriers made contact with Benteen and returned safely to their command, and, minutes later his location was physically observed, identified, and know to Custer's command.
So much for Benteen's efforts to engender the false presumption that Custer completely lost track of a substantial part of his command.
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Post by whitebull on May 20, 2011 19:34:49 GMT -5
Benteen appeared to have such a difficult time of deciphering Martini's accent that he probably just gave up on trying to listen to him or ask any further questions and just took the note. Quite a few people like Benteen are also covering up for much of what happened. That may feed into some controversy about Kanipe. Benty may have also been overly concerned with watring horse and I wonder if that is easier done through the route he chose. Your point is quite a major one and yet another reason for why Benteen clearly did dawdle. That's what I'm talking about, info. that comes down to us and being a shade tacky. If Martin's speech was so hard to understand, why was he chosen to take important message to others and how could he be a trumpeter who gets orders from others then translates that info. into musical sounds? No disrespect to you Strange intended but, Benteen again exaggerated a mole hill into a mountain! |
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Post by joewiggs on May 21, 2011 10:08:48 GMT -5
It is apparent that Benteen understood more than he cared to admit regarding the conversation between he and Martini. It is true that Martini was relatively new to the English language and that he had a noticeable accent. The problem, as I see it, is that Benteen was erroneously convinced that Custer had completed the crucial portion of the battle and only mop-up operations were in order.
This perspective resulted from the exhilaration and language used by Martini in inferring the camp was fleeing and Indians were being killed everywhere. A fact he could not have possibly known when he made the statement. This would explain Benteen's failure to even ask for Custer's current location and disposition. From martini's report he assumed two things: "disposition; the Indians were on the run, location;follow the trail. Imagine his shock when he soon realized that he was completely wrong!
When accusations of wrong doing and cowardice began to be tossed about after the battle, Benteen realized that some of his acts would be certainly be scrutinized and questioned. His conviction that Custer's aggressiveness and Martini's report prompted his actions convinced him that the fault should not lay with him and acted accordingly.
While a great commander Benteen could be extremely petty, distant, and scornful toward those he deemed less capable than he yet of a higher rank; a position Custer fit to the "T".
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Post by stumblingbear on May 21, 2011 19:00:58 GMT -5
The truth of what happen seems to be buried in a lot of "what ifs" that seem to boggle the mind.
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Post by tbw on May 22, 2011 9:15:22 GMT -5
The truth of what happen seems to be buried in a lot of "what ifs" that seem to boggle the mind. To tell you the truth, I don't think enough people try it. They're way to busy trying to critique someone else's work, promote their own or don't care to hear it in the first place, but: Here's one just for you. No. 1: What if Custer hadn't sent Benteen [120 men] on his wild goose chase? No. 2 What if Custer hadn't sent about 70 men back to help B Co. protect the pack train? It appears they were never in any danger just like Benteen said and observed at the time, but that may just be hindsight and not something Custer knew, although it doesn't look like it, does it? No. 3 Exact numbers aren't known for sure, but; Over 150 of Custer's men were left behind at the supply depot, about half of them didn't have horses to ride. What if they had - had horses to ride and Custer hadn't left over 150 men at the supply depot? Total number of paranoid delusional meanderings 120 + 70 + 150 = 340 men out of about 750 total, or 45 % of Regimental strength, who were all sent on what appears to be wild goose chases before they ever arrived at the LBH. Make sense yet? Wait, I assure you it only gets better.  |
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Post by joewiggs on Jun 28, 2011 20:08:18 GMT -5
I sincerely apologize for such a belated response but, here goes. I've always wondered why General Custer (or whoever was responsible) selected a dull witted Italian for such a responsible job as a trumpeter in the first place. One who is responsible for relaying critical, military messages.
Is it just possible that Sgt. Martin was not the idiot that Benteen made him out to be. After all, Benteen possessed an extraordinary propensity to ridicule many of his fellow officers without the slightest care.
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cinnamon
Sergeant
our love will last forever
Posts: 132
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Post by cinnamon on Jun 29, 2011 9:32:52 GMT -5
in fact Martin was not idiot. His life after LBH shows that.
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Post by joewiggs on Jun 30, 2011 17:40:45 GMT -5
Exactly my friend! When he retired from the service he was most proud of his military service and the two sons who followed his foot steps. I believe him to be a hero!
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Post by joewiggs on Jul 5, 2011 10:09:58 GMT -5
I just read something interesting that I would like to share with the forum From "Touched by Fire" - Louise Barnett.
"Martin stated in an interview with Walter Camp that Benteen had asked him if Custer was being attacked, and he had responded yes without elaboration. He was positive that he had not used the term skedaddling, a word of recent coinage that seems unlikely in the vocabulary of a man with little English, but one in keeping with Benteen's own distinctive verbal style. Moreover, martin had been sent back before Custer was anywhere near the village. He would have known of its existence and nothing further."
Yet, today books, movies, and general consensus are prone to display the belief that Martin undoubtedly uttered that descriptive word although it was probably unknown to him! It is unlikely that a soldier "reporting" to an officer would have utilized a local colloquialism while giving an official (albeit oral) report; a highly formalized procedure.
This is an example of what the collective "we" believe ain't always necessarily so.
I believe that when Benteen realized, from Martin's confirmation, that Custer was being attacked he made an assumption; the Indians were "skedaddling!" It is easy to assume (in hindsight) that Benteen could not have come to this decision because of the fatal outcome. But, Benteen's most probable presumption is that the Indians were running for their lives rather than contest the 7th.!
The subtle nuances of this battle that paint a different picture from the reality of what actually occurred is primary cause for the seemingly endless enigmas that saturated the events of this battle. The tragedy of all this is that Benteen then proceeds in a "funk" as he believes he has been denied a role in the battle. He then neglects to send a courier to Custer. had he done so, the information derived from the courier may have prompted Custer to delay his attack as the village was not attempting to escape up the valley. The exact information Custer sought and needed and Benteen's scout was designed to provide!
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Post by whitebull on Jul 5, 2011 18:19:07 GMT -5
All Benteen had to do was send a messenger to Custer telling him what information he had come up with. That's not so hard. Why he didn't is the $64,000.00 question!
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Post by joewiggs on Jul 16, 2011 17:26:16 GMT -5
He was sulking!
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Post by stumblingbear on Aug 20, 2011 12:27:11 GMT -5
He was "sulking" because he believed that Custer had won a great victory without his help. He must have thought about "Custer's Luck" striking again and thinking, "Oh man, here he goes again.!"
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Post by whitebull on Oct 8, 2011 18:40:50 GMT -5
Its funny how so many soldiers heard the sound of firing from Reno Hill but Reno and Benteen didn't. Specially when the pack train, still about a mile from Reno Hill, heard what they though was a good size battle.
"About a mile from Reno Hill, Captain McDougall saw and heard things which made him believe that a first-class battle was being fought a few miles farther down the river. he reported his observations to major Reno as soon as he arrived on the bluff."
Can anybody here explain this?
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