10 Greatest Myths about the LBH

[tbw]

Joe's recent post reminded my of the article by Michno. My main concern with most of Michno's work is he almost exclusively looks to absolve Custer of any wrong. For me that's a pretty good clue that what he has to say is controversially canted.

What I'd like to do here is offer the members a chance to state their own top 10 lists of the LBH's 10 Greatest Myths in their own view. Sure go ahead if you want and state any author, even Michno as your reasoning behind your thoughts. It doesn't bother me all that much.

I'll start the ball to rolling here of sorts and begin with a couple.

1] I think by far the greatest number of myths occur after Benteen departs on his mission. Just one of course was Benteen's mission and where he went to or was supposed to have gone.

2] This myth is broad based in scope because it covers a few events over a short period of time, namely what and where Reno's men observed of Custer's troopers on the bluffs. I think where some of them said they saw it has been skewed over the years and even what or who they saw was in some cases next to impossible if not impossible all together.

Here's one to have a little fun with. Agree, disagree, again it don't matter...

[joewiggs]

I agree with you! When Benteen turned oblique left, he entered
a world of fantasy that was only out shone by Alice and her excursion into the "looking Glass."

[joewiggs]

My selection for a top ten myth is that the soldiers were "drunk" during the battle and, as a result, did not fight well. While it is know that numerous members of the excursion to the Little Big Horn were privy to alcohol, drink did not cause the men wobble and fall down. Nor did the Indians exaggerate about what they perceived regarding as acts of intoxication.

The phenomenon the warriors observed was the result of acute mental debilitation that affects the human body when overwhelming fear overpowers the psyche. Extraordinary terror prompted by the horrific stories (some true, some not)of Indian atrocities perpetrated on "whites" when captured. These soldiers out gunned and out manned quickly fell victim to their own demons in the guise of screaming, painted, screeching, and barbaric devils frothing at the mouth, about to tear them limb from limb. Fighting white men was different in that they were "civilized" and mercy could be expected. Not so with the nightmarish warriors who relished the burning of live flesh.

This scenario was certainly true but clearly a result of many incidents of white atrocities perpetrated against the Indian (Sand Creek for example)on past occasions.

The soldiers imbued themselves with stories of "save the last bullet" for your self to avoid torture. Thus, a psychological impression gave birth to such an embedded fear that at a given time and day the soldiers succumbed to a debilitating fear that numbed their bodies and depleted their ability to fight.

This was not true of all the soldiers some,of which fought gallantly, but does account for Indian stories of men shooting in the air, shooting each other, and begging for mercy rather than using their loaded arms.

The author Gray, in his great body of work, stated that he did not believe that a group of soldiers ran pell mell into a steep ravine where they were subsequently slaughtered. It just didn't make sense to him.

Under great stress men will run toward perceived safety even if that place is, in reality, unsafe. The steep, nearly perpendicular walls of the ravine momentarily seemed like a haven. Ultimately it was not.

[tbw]

I think that was very well said and something I could agree with. I was never sure about the drunk bit with Reno, still seems it could have been true, some said it was true, so still not sure. But between the time Reno left Custer until they hit the place where they set up the skirmish line, I don't think was any more than 20 to 30 minutes at most, and again I think they stayed on that open skirmish line about a half an hour, so I think he had to have been drinking before he ever left Custer to be totally inebriated. Sure some drinks can activate pretty quickly during that hour or so, but I do wonder if it was enough to impair his judgement. As far as Custer letting him go on a mission half drunk? I think Ill leave that for someone who knew Custer.

[stumblingbear]

My choice are the orders Custer received from Gen. Terry.

It seems that quite a few people are certain that Custer disobeyed his orders and, as a result, he and his men died. Had he waited until the 26th., Terry and gibbon could have supported Custer. I disagree!

In Terry's original report he wrote that Gibbon's column would be expected to reach, "in all probability," the mouth of the Little Big Horn on June 26.

Later he wrote, that the meeting on the Little Big Horn was set for "exactly" the 26.

Gibbon in his report stated that he thought it would take his men six day to arrive which would have put him there on the

What is even more unbelievable is that Captain Robert P. Hughes (Terry's brother-in-law and aide-de-camp) and Major James Brisbin tried to prove that Custer had been guilty of disobeying orders but, the document they used was proved to have been altered against Custer.

lastly, the maps that Terry used were inaccurate as to landmarks and distances because civilization was not familiar with that area. Thats why Gen. Terry used words such as "zeal" energy" and "ability" because he realized that no village would stand still while lumbering infantry slowly approached and that Custer's fast moving calvary was meant to be the "hammer" to drive the Indians toward the slower columns.

[whitebull]

My bid for the top ten is the theory that Reno's skirmish line was over run by thousands of Indians. Reno was one of the first to hide in the timber and was followed (real quick) by the rest of the line. How do I figure? from what I have read, a correctly spaced and disciplined line can hold off just about any amount of Indians. Here's an example.

When the troops left Weir's Point they said that thousands of Indians were right behind them. How could one troop hold back thousands if Reno's three troop could not hold back hundreds?

When the rest was "on the jump" Godfrey made his men fall in line and hold their position even though they tried to bunch up. Staying spaced the men fired and drove the Indians back!
The men then started to retreat to Reno's position. then men began to bunch of again and firing less. "This was pretty good evidence that that they were getting demoralized" Godfrey wrote.

He had the men regroup, get back in intervals and once again drove the Indians back.

Don't you think Reno should have been able to do the same thing in the timber? He couldn't because he was to busy "charging" the hills.

[tbw]

Jun 5, 2011 10:36:27 GMT -5 whitebull said:

My bid for the top ten is the theory that Reno's skirmish line was over run by thousands of Indians. Reno was one of the first to hide in the timber and was followed (real quick) by the rest of the line. How do I figure? from what I have read, a correctly spaced and disciplined line can hold off just about any amount of Indians. Here's an example.

When the troops left Weir's Point they said that thousands of Indians were right behind them. How could one troop hold back thousands if Reno's three troop could not hold back hundreds?

When the rest was "on the jump" Godfrey made his men fall in line and hold their position even though they tried to bunch up. Staying spaced the men fired and drove the Indians back!
The men then started to retreat to Reno's position. then men began to bunch of again and firing less. "This was pretty good evidence that that they were getting demoralized" Godfrey wrote.

He had the men regroup, get back in intervals and once again drove the Indians back.

Don't you think Reno should have been able to do the same thing in the timber? He couldn't because he was to busy "charging" the hills.

You could be right here. I'm not as sure as you are of the facts as you have stated them. You could be confusing the facts. First you state thousands of Indians attacking Reno, and then later in your statement, say that Reno and his men faced hundreds. I guess that should be clarified first. Hundreds or thousands?

I think the men could have overstated the Indian numbers on Reno's retreat back from the Weir advance. Where were they in respect to Godfrey's position? Some could have been close, others much farther away. I think if there were thousands coming after them, that no skirmish line could have or would have stopped them, they simply would have outflanked that small line and kept on charging to the rear of the column and it would have been all over but the war whoops and screams of the victorious Indians.

The position of Godfrey's line is another mystery here. Exactly where was it? What could have or would have prevented the Indians from outflanking it? Godfrey's company had about 40 some odd men, that meant that about 10 of those were horse holders. The result is that this particular skirmish line could only have been something like about 150 yards long. About the size of a football field and a half in length. That's not very long when you consider the terrain and just how little it would have taken to outflank that line which is exactly what they did to Reno and his men in the valley.

Still, all and all a very good choice. and very good for one of the top ten. Thanks

[joewiggs]

I'm not quite sure if this belongs in the top ten but, the manner in which Benteen swore that he did not have a clue as to what Custer intended by his "orders"has always amazed me. Why would Custer not inform Benteen of his responsibilities? What sense would it make not to do so?

Well, Custer did tell Benteen. However, Benteen did not want the folks at the Inquiry to realize this fact as his refusal to act and re-act to his superior's command could have caused him a great deal of damage to his reputation had others known of his malfeasance of duty.

After advising the Court that he could have gone on for infinity in a fruitless search (away from the battle) if he had not had the foresight to "oblique left" in defiance of Custer's orders thus saving Reno;would it not have been interesting to read a letter he wrote to his wife on 7/2/76?:

" I was ordered with companies "D", "H", and "K", to go to the left for the purpose of hunting for the "Valley of the River, Indian Camp, or anything I could find."

Two days letter he submitted a second letter to his wife:
"I was suppose to go over the immense hill to the left in search of the valley which was suppose to be very near by."

Need more be said?

[joewiggs]

Another myth that has gone a long way to ensure that Custer was an "idiot" tactically and, completely responsible for the fatal outcome of the battle.

At the Reno inquiry, Reno gave sworn testimony that his command consisted of 112 officers and men not counting the scouts. He remembered that this was an "actual count" as he requested the company commanders to report the number of men they had in the saddle.

Reno's count was confirmed by the stalwart and informative Wallace who said the number of men who advanced down the valley was between 112 and 115, (including the scouts!!!).

The actual count of Troopers in Reno's command was:

Co. "A" - 3 officers 47 men;
Co. "G" - 2 officers 38 men;
Co. "M" - 2 officers 47 men.

Add 21 scouts and 7 civilians the total comes to 174 men. Quite a difference in count isn't it? Why? I don't know but I will offer my personnel speculation.

The least amount of command proffered by Reno and Wallace , the more pronounced the inefficiency of the orders received by them, the more responsible (for the irresponsible orders) the commander,Custer, for the order.

I would sincerely appreciate some other views?

[whitebull]

Just call me naive but I can not understand why incorrect information was given by Reno and Wallace if not to make Custer look uncaring and/or irresponsible.

I'm not saying that even with the new count Reno had enough men to carry out orders. What I am saying, if Joe's information is true, is that they lied!

There is no way possible, I believe, that such a large discrepancy in the amount of troopers listed is possible.

[crazycanuck]

That Custer was a great Indian fighter is a myth.His only big battle with the 7th, before LBH, where he died at the hands of the Indians was Washita 1868.Washita was a sneak attack... a sucker punch where some Indians were shot in the back as well as some women and children. Custer with the press manufactured the myth of his prowess and of course the public can be gullible. Crazy Horse was great Indian fighter until he was murdered.

[joewiggs]

Crazy Horse was a phenomenal human being. Far different from the more gregarious leader type, Crazy Horse was a loner who stood "tall" only when the tribe was threatened;then look out buddy!

Custer's "Myth" was based on two factors: the celebrity status he garnered from his exploits during the Civil War and his experience as an Indian fighter. While this experience was not monumental in depth, you would be hard pressed to name another that had more experience than he.

[crazycanuck]

Good point Jiggs or Joggs ( I'm leaning towards Jiggs ) but I'm sure there were many brave fighters in the civil war and on the plains who chose no limelight unlike Custers aggrandized self promotion(some people will do anything for stardom, attention and money but not Crazy Horse). I quess we could say it is all relative, Custer MAY have had the most experience out of everybody whose experiences were not monumental, but Crazy Horse was a great Indian fighter more so than Custer was a great Indian fighter.Just saying and besides Jiggs Custers not an Indian.

[joewiggs]

Touche! I see what you mean. Crazy Horse was a true Indian fighter until he was murdered!

[whitebull]

Aug 21, 2011 10:52:24 GMT -5 crazycanuck said:

Good point Jiggs or Joggs ( I'm leaning towards Jiggs ) but I'm sure there were many brave fighters in the civil war and on the plains who chose no limelight unlike Custer's aggrandized self promotion(some people will do anything for stardom, attention and money but not Crazy Horse). I quess we could say it is all relative, Custer MAY have had the most experience out of everybody whose experiences were not monumental, but Crazy Horse was a great Indian fighter more so than Custer was a great Indian fighter.Just saying and besides Jiggs Custers not an Indian.

Could you maybe show us the info/sources that show Custer tooted his own horn for "self promotion?" Libbie's books don't count because he was already dead.