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Post by stumblingbear on May 28, 2013 14:26:38 GMT -5
WOW, he did let the Indians do something that the confederates never did! Was it because of a lack of respect for the Indians. I think so!
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Post by tbw on May 28, 2013 14:55:09 GMT -5
Might be SB or he was in to much of a hurry to really see what his eyes should have told him, that is, if he was ever up on those bluffs high enough to see what he should have.
That's why I don't think he ever touched those bluffs. It makes more sense, and something Custer was known to do, was stealthily make his way to their flanks and pop up there unexpected. I never did say that nothing was going on up on those bluffs. He had sent the Crows up there before he ever departed from Reno. And he was well known to throw pickets out if he thought there was any danger from a certain direction. This plus the fact that he sent out 6 man teams well in advance of his own main force just like he had instructed Benteen to do. I not only think but believe this is who and what Reno's men were seeing from the valley.
The thing some people can't wrap their minds around is the report Martin and others with Custer made in reference to seeing the village from some heights somewhere. But there were enough of those places no matter where Custer chose to make his ride downstream, those being Luce, NyeC and the whole slope up from Battle Ridge which extended upward for something like a half mile or more. And in association with Martin's statement about where they left the drinking pond made that statement sound as if it were linear in thought, it wasn't. There's nothing in those statements to connect one statement to another except someone's wishful thinking that they did.
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Post by stumblingbear on May 29, 2013 10:30:08 GMT -5
I see what you mean. Could he have seen the village from Reno's ridge? If he did he didn't have to go anywhere else to see what he already had seen. How did he get down to the flat area? What route did he use? If Benteen saw Custer's men up the valley isn't he guilty of not telling the others? It seems to me that he had a responsibility to let the others know what was going on. How can it be explained when Benteen later said he didn't have any idea of what Custer was trying to do if he did see some of his men in the valley. it seems to me that Custer had committed himself at that point!
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Post by tbw on May 29, 2013 15:26:13 GMT -5
I see what you mean. Could he have seen the village from Reno's ridge? If he did he didn't have to go anywhere else to see what he already had seen. How did he get down to the flat area? What route did he use? If Benteen saw Custer's men up the valley isn't he guilty of not telling the others? It seems to me that he had a responsibility to let the others know what was going on. How can it be explained when Benteen later said he didn't have any idea of what Custer was trying to do if he did see some of his men in the valley. it seems to me that Custer had committed himself at that point! Having gone there and taken a look see all along the edge of the bluffs from Reno to Weir, the answer to your first question is yes. There was no reason he couldn't have seen from there EVERYTHING he needed to know. As in where the Indians were running to - as in to where the horses were. And/or them returning before he left that ridge. Every tepee in that valley could have been seen from up there. There's nowhere where any part of that village would have been completely covered. The 2nd question poses the thought, what made him go further on if he did go the way everyone and their sister thinks he did, ie. over those bluffs. And they why's from there balloon exponentially towards him being a total fool had he gone over them, seen everything he needed to see, and still rode on with single shot squirrel rifles and a 6 shot revolvers - and throw it at em goofy charge. Of course this is all hindsight. What we know. What did Custer know? Over the all knowing/seeing bluffs or as Godfrey wrote, Curley told about, and Martin testified to, around them? If Benteen saw Custer's men up the valley isn't he guilty of not telling the others? He only testified to seeing them once, this supposedly about 45 minutes after their departure from him. This would have been close, very close to the half-way point in Benteen's mission to where Custer had sent him. Curiously enough why wouldn't he have seen Custer and his 225 troopers, horses and all 'go over those bluffs'? Or, was that where he saw those 'white horses' 45 minutes out after departing from Custer? That would have depended entirely upon where he departed Custer from. And everyone and his chatter monkey has gotten that one wrong too. They never have learned to read Ree. Benteen was supposed to contact Custer, but supposedly only if and after he had engaged the Indians. This of course also comes down to what Benteen knew, and if you read the RCOI, what he knew reads like a who's who, when and where pree (premonition) that he kept having that day. Nostradamus he wasn't. As for when Custer committed himself to battle. He did that the place, time and very moment he pointed to a line of bluffs (about 2 to 4 miles away) and told Benteen to go there and pitch into anything he found. AND BENTEEN KNEW THIS! Supposedly, according to Benteen, he was supposed to "look up some Indians there". And that place wasn't where everyone and their Ree horse keeps trying to place it - anywhere from about 8 to 12 miles from the river, and, another 3 on to the village. Stupid is as stupid does, I guess. But then Custer evidently was, right? |
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Post by stumblingbear on Jun 8, 2013 10:43:53 GMT -5
I see what you mean. Could he have seen the village from Reno's ridge? If he did he didn't have to go anywhere else to see what he already had seen. How did he get down to the flat area? What route did he use? If Benteen saw Custer's men up the valley isn't he guilty of not telling the others? It seems to me that he had a responsibility to let the others know what was going on. How can it be explained when Benteen later said he didn't have any idea of what Custer was trying to do if he did see some of his men in the valley. it seems to me that Custer had committed himself at that point! Having gone there and taken a look see all along the edge of the bluffs from Reno to Weir, the answer to your first question is yes. There was no reason he couldn't have seen from there EVERYTHING he needed to know. As in where the Indians were running to - as in to where the horses were. And/or them returning before he left that ridge. Every tepee in that valley could have been seen from up there. There's nowhere where any part of that village would have been completely covered. The 2nd question poses the thought, what made him go further on if he did go the way everyone and their sister thinks he did, ie. over those bluffs. And they why's from there balloon exponentially towards him being a total fool had he gone over them, seen everything he needed to see, and still rode on with single shot squirrel rifles and a 6 shot revolvers - and throw it at em goofy charge. Of course this is all hindsight. What we know. What did Custer know? Over the all knowing/seeing bluffs or as Godfrey wrote, Curley told about, and Martin testified to, around them? If Benteen saw Custer's men up the valley isn't he guilty of not telling the others? He only testified to seeing them once, this supposedly about 45 minutes after their departure from him. This would have been close, very close to the half-way point in Benteen's mission to where Custer had sent him. Curiously enough why wouldn't he have seen Custer and his 225 troopers, horses and all 'go over those bluffs'? Or, was that where he saw those 'white horses' 45 minutes out after departing from Custer? That would have depended entirely upon where he departed Custer from. And everyone and his chatter monkey has gotten that one wrong too. They never have learned to read Ree. Benteen was supposed to contact Custer, but supposedly only if and after he had engaged the Indians. This of course also comes down to what Benteen knew, and if you read the RCOI, what he knew reads like a who's who, when and where pree (premonition) that he kept having that day. Nostradamus he wasn't. As for when Custer committed himself to battle. He did that the place, time and very moment he pointed to a line of bluffs (about 2 to 4 miles away) and told Benteen to go there and pitch into anything he found. AND BENTEEN KNEW THIS! Supposedly, according to Benteen, he was supposed to "look up some Indians there". And that place wasn't where everyone and their Ree horse keeps trying to place it - anywhere from about 8 to 12 miles from the river, and, another 3 on to the village. Stupid is as stupid does, I guess. But then Custer evidently was, right? Thank you for your reply, it goes a long way in helping me to understand a part of the battle that has always confused me.  Benteen did spend a lot of time trying to convince everyone that he fell into the, "I see nothing, I hear nothing, I know nothing" Sgt. Schultz syndrome. One question, why did Benteen not send a messenger to Custer when he realized that the valley was empty? Someone one the forum suggested that but i don't recall any response. A single rider could have gotten back a lot easier than a hundred men. Custer would have gotten important information (the village is not running as he believed) and could have changed his plans accordingly. |
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Post by tbw on Jun 8, 2013 11:22:31 GMT -5
Having gone there and taken a look see all along the edge of the bluffs from Reno to Weir, the answer to your first question is yes. There was no reason he couldn't have seen from there EVERYTHING he needed to know. As in where the Indians were running to - as in to where the horses were. And/or them returning before he left that ridge. Every tepee in that valley could have been seen from up there. There's nowhere where any part of that village would have been completely covered. The 2nd question poses the thought, what made him go further on if he did go the way everyone and their sister thinks he did, ie. over those bluffs. And they why's from there balloon exponentially towards him being a total fool had he gone over them, seen everything he needed to see, and still rode on with single shot squirrel rifles and a 6 shot revolvers - and throw it at em goofy charge. Of course this is all hindsight. What we know. What did Custer know? Over the all knowing/seeing bluffs or as Godfrey wrote, Curley told about, and Martin testified to, around them? If Benteen saw Custer's men up the valley isn't he guilty of not telling the others? He only testified to seeing them once, this supposedly about 45 minutes after their departure from him. This would have been close, very close to the half-way point in Benteen's mission to where Custer had sent him. Curiously enough why wouldn't he have seen Custer and his 225 troopers, horses and all 'go over those bluffs'? Or, was that where he saw those 'white horses' 45 minutes out after departing from Custer? That would have depended entirely upon where he departed Custer from. And everyone and his chatter monkey has gotten that one wrong too. They never have learned to read Ree. Benteen was supposed to contact Custer, but supposedly only if and after he had engaged the Indians. This of course also comes down to what Benteen knew, and if you read the RCOI, what he knew reads like a who's who, when and where pree (premonition) that he kept having that day. Nostradamus he wasn't. As for when Custer committed himself to battle. He did that the place, time and very moment he pointed to a line of bluffs (about 2 to 4 miles away) and told Benteen to go there and pitch into anything he found. AND BENTEEN KNEW THIS! Supposedly, according to Benteen, he was supposed to "look up some Indians there". And that place wasn't where everyone and their Ree horse keeps trying to place it - anywhere from about 8 to 12 miles from the river, and, another 3 on to the village. Stupid is as stupid does, I guess. But then Custer evidently was, right? Thank you for your reply, it goes a long way in helping me to understand a part of the battle that has always confused me. Benteen did spend a lot of time trying to convince everyone that he fell into the, "I see nothing, I hear nothing, I know nothing" Sgt. Schultz syndrome. One question, why did Benteen not send a messenger to Custer when he realized that the valley was empty? Someone one the forum suggested that but i don't recall any response. A single rider could have gotten back a lot easier than a hundred men. Custer would have gotten important information (the village is not running as he believed) and could have changed his plans accordingly. If he didn't see the valley. If he didn't find any valley. If he didn't go into any valley. How then was he supposed to send any message, when his mission was "valley hunting" and he never found it, never saw it and never went into it? And it was why Custer tried to micromanage Benteen's mission. The wording. He was to go there, pitch into the Indians he was sent to "look up" and THEN report that action to Gen'l. Custer - that was the whole smash, nothing less and most certainly - NOTHING MORE. He was not charged by orders to send back anything other than what Custer told him to do. And that's all he did. Again. I"ve gone to the various proposed routes Benteen was supposed to have gone over. The numero-uno one was supposedly near or not far from the divide as his departure point. Make sense? Why then? Why there? It doesn't make a lick of sense. And there was absolutely no reason to at that time for his departure. When one mounts the higher nether regions of this ride, one could still have seen the massive horse herds, and as daylight approached it would have been a lot easier to have witnessed what the scouts and guides termed the 'squirming' movement of these animals as they grazed. Benteen - blind? How about all the others supposedly up there - blind too? Didn't happen that way, otherwise there would have been the same report from Benteen and his men as Varnum mentioned. Yet. Not one word. Reason? It didn't happen that way. Also you have people who select this route deny what Benteen himself testified to, that those 'range of bluffs' Custer pointed to was 2 to 4 miles distant, not the one mile distant excuse for a hill (not a bluff) they excuse Benteen for going to. It didn't happen. Because it didn't happen 10 miles from the river. And it didn't happen 13 miles from the closest approach to the village. And it wasn't at a 45 degree angle Benteen testified to. It was about 1/3rd that amount and a hell of a lot closer to the LBH river. And he didn't see the valley or find it because he was in it for a greater part of his ride. |
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Post by joewiggs on Jun 8, 2013 21:14:44 GMT -5
Thank you for your reply, it goes a long way in helping me to understand a part of the battle that has always confused me. Benteen did spend a lot of time trying to convince everyone that he fell into the, "I see nothing, I hear nothing, I know nothing" Sgt. Schultz syndrome. One question, why did Benteen not send a messenger to Custer when he realized that the valley was empty? Someone one the forum suggested that but i don't recall any response. A single rider could have gotten back a lot easier than a hundred men. Custer would have gotten important information (the village is not running as he believed) and could have changed his plans accordingly. If he didn't see the valley. If he didn't find any valley. If he didn't go into any valley. How then was he supposed to send any message, when his mission was "valley hunting" and he never found it, never saw it and never went into it? And it was why Custer tried to micromanage Benteen's mission. The wording. He was to go there, pitch into the Indians he was sent to "look up" and THEN report that action to Gen'l. Custer - that was the whole smash, nothing less and most certainly - NOTHING MORE. He was not charged by orders to send back anything other than what Custer told him to do. And that's all he did. Again. I"ve gone to the various proposed routes Benteen was supposed to have gone over. The numero-uno one was supposedly near or not far from the divide as his departure point. Make sense? Why then? Why there? It doesn't make a lick of sense. And there was absolutely no reason to at that time for his departure. When one mounts the higher nether regions of this ride, one could still have seen the massive horse herds, and as daylight approached it would have been a lot easier to have witnessed what the scouts and guides termed the 'squirming' movement of these animals as they grazed. Benteen - blind? How about all the others supposedly up there - blind too? Didn't happen that way, otherwise there would have been the same report from Benteen and his men as Varnum mentioned. Yet. Not one word. Reason? It didn't happen that way. Also you have people who select this route deny what Benteen himself testified to, that those 'range of bluffs' Custer pointed to was 2 to 4 miles distant, not the one mile distant excuse for a hill (not a bluff) they excuse Benteen for going to. It didn't happen. Because it didn't happen 10 miles from the river. And it didn't happen 13 miles from the closest approach to the village. And it wasn't at a 45 degree angle Benteen testified to. It was about 1/3rd that amount and a hell of a lot closer to the LBH river. And he didn't see the valley or find it because he was in it for a greater part of his ride. Allow me to interject a bit of personal perspective here. The only individual who testified that Benteen's mission was merely "Valley Hunting" was Benteen himself. There exist no other data, information, conjecture, nor speculation that adherer's to Benteen's ridiculous description of his orders other than additional drivel submitted by Reno. Benteen himself in a written letter to his wife stated that he received orders to "find the valley" from Custer. This letter, written before Benteen was subjected to a public out cry of a possible accusation of malfeasance of duty, used the definite article " the" in his letter which specifies a definitive location. Had he truly had no idea what he was looking for he would have used the indefinite article "a" to signify any, unknown valley. I believe your point is worth discussing SB. Custer was imbued with the typica (for that era)l but erroneous belief that the Indians would flee at the approach of the U.S. Cavalry, wanted to make sure that escape was impossible. I realize that knowing the fatal end of the battle renders this opinion as somewhat absurd, however, in Custer's time the thought of Indians not running was considered to be absurd as well! tbw, I laud your iastute knowledge and intensive efforts of study but I believe that SB may have "stumbled" on a pertinent point here!  |
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Post by tbw on Jun 9, 2013 7:43:04 GMT -5
If he didn't see the valley. If he didn't find any valley. If he didn't go into any valley. How then was he supposed to send any message, when his mission was "valley hunting" and he never found it, never saw it and never went into it? And it was why Custer tried to micromanage Benteen's mission. The wording. He was to go there, pitch into the Indians he was sent to "look up" and THEN report that action to Gen'l. Custer - that was the whole smash, nothing less and most certainly - NOTHING MORE. He was not charged by orders to send back anything other than what Custer told him to do. And that's all he did. Again. I"ve gone to the various proposed routes Benteen was supposed to have gone over. The numero-uno one was supposedly near or not far from the divide as his departure point. Make sense? Why then? Why there? It doesn't make a lick of sense. And there was absolutely no reason to at that time for his departure. When one mounts the higher nether regions of this ride, one could still have seen the massive horse herds, and as daylight approached it would have been a lot easier to have witnessed what the scouts and guides termed the 'squirming' movement of these animals as they grazed. Benteen - blind? How about all the others supposedly up there - blind too? Didn't happen that way, otherwise there would have been the same report from Benteen and his men as Varnum mentioned. Yet. Not one word. Reason? It didn't happen that way. Also you have people who select this route deny what Benteen himself testified to, that those 'range of bluffs' Custer pointed to was 2 to 4 miles distant, not the one mile distant excuse for a hill (not a bluff) they excuse Benteen for going to. It didn't happen. Because it didn't happen 10 miles from the river. And it didn't happen 13 miles from the closest approach to the village. And it wasn't at a 45 degree angle Benteen testified to. It was about 1/3rd that amount and a hell of a lot closer to the LBH river. And he didn't see the valley or find it because he was in it for a greater part of his ride. Allow me to interject a bit of personal perspective here. The only individual who testified that Benteen's mission was merely "Valley Hunting" was Benteen himself. There exist no other data, information, conjecture, nor speculation that adherer's to Benteen's ridiculous description of his orders other than additional drivel submitted by Reno. Benteen himself in a written letter to his wife stated that he received orders to "find the valley" from Custer. This letter, written before Benteen was subjected to a public out cry of a possible accusation of malfeasance of duty, used the definite article " the" in his letter which specifies a definitive location. Had he truly had no idea what he was looking for he would have used the indefinite article "a" to signify any, unknown valley. I believe your point is worth discussing SB. Custer was imbued with the typica (for that era)l but erroneous belief that the Indians would flee at the approach of the U.S. Cavalry, wanted to make sure that escape was impossible. I realize that knowing the fatal end of the battle renders this opinion as somewhat absurd, however, in Custer's time the thought of Indians not running was considered to be absurd as well! tbw, I laud your iastute knowledge and intensive efforts of study but I believe that SB may have "stumbled" on a pertinent point here! Benteen certainly had a way with words. And how he perceived and told of his orders makes for a tale right out of the Arabian Knights. If he didn't see the valley. If he didn't find any valley. If he didn't go into any valley. How then was he supposed to send any message, when his mission was 'valley hunting' and he never found it, never saw it and never went into it? Well now isn't that what we're led to believe? I never said he didn't find the valley. I think he did. He wasn't likely to tell of what he found there though. After all, wasn't it Crooke who had tangled with those same Indians and lost and he thought Custer shoulda left them alone too. All hindsight mind you on Benteen's part - at the COI - even. But then, who's looking at that? Beside the point. I like Benteen's estimates of Indian numbers that day. Stated at two different points in the coi, 9,000 and 10,000. If you figure 1/2 of those to be male, 4500 to 5000, and half again of those fighting age, you come up with 2250 to 2500 warriors. He thought there was about 900 warriors at the Reno fight. That meant not much less than 1300 to 1600 warriors were all over Custer's. Odds I've said all along were about 7-1 in favor of the Indians in both battles. |
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Post by whitebull on Jun 9, 2013 9:48:45 GMT -5
Yup, Benteen was quite a character. You wanted to be hanging on his shirt tails in a fight because not to many other guys were as good as he was in a fight. But man, if he didn't like you look out!
I've beeb reading the Benteen section in Graham's book and I meant to tell you, he shot down everybody in the fight except him! What he did or didn't do is up in the air except for his part in defending Reno's hill. If it wasn't for him I really believe they would have been run over and killed!
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Post by joewiggs on Jun 15, 2013 20:54:28 GMT -5
You have hit upon the main problem, I believe, with Benteen. He was capable of so much but, when angry over some discourtesy (real or perceived) he was prone to placing that individual in the status of that: "Son of a B***h, and there you remained for a substanial period of time.
For example, after the battle was over members of the officer class spoke of a presumption that Custer had deserted Reno and probably was fleeing toward Terry and, that the firing that came from his position was a "rear guard" action which supported their desertion. Whom do you suppose started that rumor? Also, whom do you suppose hinted to a defeated and morally distraught bunch of soldiers on Reno's Hill that,"could this be another Elliot affair?" Yours truly, Freddy Benteen.
Which member of the 7Th. slapped, punched, and threatened bodily harm to a substantial portion of his comrades-in-arms? Fred!
Which outstanding soldier was eventually made Major but, screwed up his last assignment to such a degree that he was subjected to a court-martial as a result. Yoiu guessed it.
Would I want him at my side in a battle, you are darn tooting. Would I invite him over to meet the family? Probably not.
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Post by whitebull on Jun 16, 2013 10:35:54 GMT -5
Benteen sure didn't like the man for sure!  |
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Post by stumblingbear on Jun 16, 2013 14:18:35 GMT -5
Benteem may have been the kind of man that was so sure of himself that he didn't like being confused by facts. ;DB
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Post by joewiggs on Jun 16, 2013 18:47:05 GMT -5
He was a tad rigid and, non-compromising in his thought patterns. Benteen deserved much recognition as far as his contributions in the war effort was concerned but' he may received comparatively little (Captain instead of Lt. Colonel) in the way of recognition and, must have resented that fact; a completely human reaction.
My theory is that he was extremely jealous of Custer; both had similar war records but Benteen did not possess that flair of public notoriety that continuously engulfed the "Long Hair" Custer whose near presence drove the "Bells" of that era Ga-GA!
Benteen probably did not think that Custer's command abilities were legitimately superior to his own and that much of what Custer received in the way of publicity was strictly a result of his flamboyant personality. He may have been right.
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Post by tbw on Jun 16, 2013 22:01:28 GMT -5
Can anyone spot the myth
Q. What time that day was it that Gen. Custer said when the officers were together, that he did not believe the reports about the presence of Indians?
A. About 10 o'clock.
Q. How long before you were sent to the left was it that Gen. Custer said he did not believe there were any Indians in that country?
A. We had marched 8 or 10 miles. (From the first halt, which had occurred at 10 am). From there back to where they had made coffee was yet another 8 miles taking 4 hours time.
Q. Where was the pack train at the time of separations
A. The pack train at the time of the first halt was closed up;
Q. State in regard to what battalions or organizations were made on the
25th?
A. They were made probably 4 hours after we marched.
I think at the first halt. An orderly came to me with instructions for the officers to assemble at a point where he was, for an officers call.
I went to General Custer and told him my company fulfilled his requisitions. He then said I had the advance.
We moved then probably 8 (to 10) miles and halted in a kind of valley surrounded by high hills. I suppose that place was selected so as to hide us from any Indians, were any in sight, or in that vicinity. Then the division into battalions was made. I received three companies and was sent to the left to a line of bluffs.
Q. Where was the pack train at the time of separations
A. The pack train at the time of the first halt was closed up; where it was at the second halt where we were divided, I don't know. I suppose it was close up to the rear of the regiment.
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Post by joewiggs on Jun 17, 2013 7:41:50 GMT -5
Here's what I see. Benteen was aware that "Indian Signs" clearly showed large number of Indians before them. Custer reported to the officer's meeting after the Crows Nest that his scouts saw the village even though he could not. Custer, however, believed his scouts. Benteen was aware of this so his statement regarding Custer's disbelief is a blatant lie.
Another "side" is that when Benteen advised Custer his command was at the "ready" he lied just to get the "advance."
How did I do?
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Benteen did spend a lot of time trying to convince everyone that he fell into the, "I see nothing, I hear nothing, I know nothing" Sgt. Schultz syndrome.
