Will the real Custer please stand up!

[stumblingbear]

Custer received so much praise and accolades during the Civil War era. His men admired him because he led from the front, unlike most Generals.

After the world he must have been disappointed when the cream of the military left leaving many slackers behind. His failure to rise about Lt. Col. probably affected him as well.

His personality changed as disappointment followed him one step behind the other. He soon became disenchanted and a little bitter.

Gone were the days of celebrity and acknowledgment followed by a change in personality and the way he treated his men.

The real Custer was a mixture of two personalities.

[joewiggs]

Yes, the real Custer was not a one dimensional, totally predictable martinet who was always "gung ho" for glory at the expense of his men. Like you and I he was a complex human being like the rest of us who was multifaceted.

Those who insist that he made idiot decisions at the battle choose to totally disregard his natural intellect, martial abilities and training, and a strong desire to return home to the wife he loved.

[crazycanuck]

Joe, do you think he was gung ho for glory on the 25th ? I do. His bad decisions leading up to the battle appear non-intellectual. I mean he wasn't no rocket scientist, I mean how could he of been ha ha no rockets ,okay yeah I will admit there were air ballons,hey maybe Custer was full of hot air ha ha. ? Nor was he a telecommunication genuis ,ask Benteen ( I mean how can you come quick and bring the packs at the same time ?) . Now Graham Bell was a genuis at that time. Just because Custer may or may not have had natural intellect, martial abilities,and a strong desire to be with his wife doesn't mean he couldn't of made idiot decisions, in fact wanting to be with his wife badly, may have driven his rash mistakes. I mean wasn't he court martialled for running back to his wife earlier in his career,not so smart ? it's just my opinion.

[tbw]

CC

I respect your position on this one. You certainly have the right to feel & believe the way you do. And it certainly is a subject worthy of our discussion. I respectfully submit the following for your consideration.

In the spring of 1862 Custer was sent aloft with Thaddeus Lowe in a hot air balloon not far from Richmond, Virginia. He was selected to go up because he had the necessary intelligence skills needed to observe, evaluate terrain and force disposition and report the same on Confederate positions. A job as a young officer he greatly appreciated and learned how important communications could be.

I think we tend to see that message sent from Custer through Martin as his personal message, it was not, it was something cobbled together by Lt. Cooke in great haste, had it been handwritten by Custer himself, it would have been assuredly different. But it also demonstrates something that we all tend to forget, the unseen element in that same message and what it directly implied; that Custer knew where Benteen was when he sent that message. So while we blame Custer for the message, the blame properly belongs to Cooke, not Custer for the perceived foul up.

The Bureau of Indian Affairs had reported a large number of Indian Lodges had not attempted to obtain their rations from the government on the Sioux Indian reservation. The Bureau had established the number of "missing lodges" at around 1500. The estimated two warriors per lodge gave the Army an estimated enemy strength of around 3000 warriors. This is something that Custer did know before he ever left on his mission, so when Bloody Knife after observing the Sioux village estimated their strength by saying “We’ll find enough Sioux to keep us fighting two or three days: And Mitch Boyuer said, “Well General, if you don’t find more Indians in that valley than you ever saw together you can hang me": There was absolutely no reason for him not to have believed them. Yet we still get from just one source that the didn't, and for that we blame him? Taken from what intelligence he had received before ever leaving on the mission, had he found them "all together" (some 1500 lodges) would he have believed any differently that he had not, especially knowing his intelligence background?

Massive failures also occurred for which Lt. Col. Custer should not be blamed for. Crook and others failed to communicate with the other columns to inform of events and or sightings, namely Terry's, in order to better coordinate and inform. This can hardly be blamed on Terry or for that matter on Custer, and more than likely contributed to Custer and his men's demise more than any other single factor.

I certainly hope Joe answers you very soon. He's been rather busy lately, so don't take it to personal if it takes him a while to answer.

[crazycanuck]

TBW ,I hear you, but sending Custer up in a balloon doesn't make him a Doctor of Communications. Custer is the CEO at the LBH and it is job to make sure he checks the note before it left with Martin. His job is to remain cool and calm and communicate effectively. Custer chose to move ahead from the divide because he is the boss, he ascertains the info from his subordinates and then away he goes.He either listens to them seriously or he doesn't. It is that simple. In my opinion you can't use Crooks failures as the biggest reason for Custers failure. It wasn't Crook who divided the regiment in front of 3000 warriors in unchartered territory. Custer did that.

[tbw]

TBW ,I hear you, but sending Custer up in a balloon doesn't make him a Doctor of Communications.

Custer was so taken with 'communications' that he is well known for his exploits after his balloon exposition. So, yes it did make him an expert in that field as part of his engineering duties, and, I didn't make up the story about 'why' he was chosen, its well documented, it wasn't simply a stunt.

His job is to remain cool and calm and communicate effectively.

How do we know he didn't? It was Cooke that wrote the note, therefore it was Cooke's responsibility, so delegated by Custer, to see to it that Custer's orders be translated as efficiently and effectively as possible to his subordinates. Whether that was done is really what should be asked. And with this, just how much should Custer micromanage his subordinates to see to it that they interpret what he says is correctly interpreted and conveyed? Does he really have time for that in each and every instance?

In my opinion you can't use Crooks failures as the biggest reason for Custers failure. It wasn't Crook who divided the regiment in front of 3000 warriors in unchartered territory. Custer did that.

And if Crook had conveyed to Terry, thus Custer, that some 900 to 1000 Indians had left their village & come after him and had made a surprise attack upon him? Would this have made a difference as to their demeanor and ultimately his, in his approach to and attacking their village?

[strange]

Feb 19, 2011 13:53:04 GMT -5 tbw said:

TBW ,I hear you, but sending Custer up in a balloon doesn't make him a Doctor of Communications.

Custer was so taken with 'communications' that he is well known for his exploits after his balloon exposition. So, yes it did make him an expert in that field as part of his engineering duties, and, I didn't make up the story about 'why' he was chosen, its well documented, it wasn't simply a stunt.



How do we know he didn't? It was Cooke that wrote the note, therefore it was Cooke's responsibility, so delegated by Custer, to see to it that Custer's orders be translated as efficiently and effectively as possible to his subordinates. Whether that was done is really what should be asked. And with this, just how much should Custer micromanage his subordinates to see to it that they interpret what he says is correctly interpreted and conveyed? Does he really have time for that in each and every instance?

In my opinion you can't use Crooks failures as the biggest reason for Custers failure. It wasn't Crook who divided the regiment in front of 3000 warriors in unchartered territory. Custer did that.

And if Crook had conveyed to Terry, thus Custer, that some 900 to 1000 Indians had left their village & come after him and had made a surprise attack upon him? Would this have made a difference as to their demeanor and ultimately his, in his approach to and attacking their village?

Interesting you mention that. Not only can we debate about whether Benteen's orders were vague, but we could also point to Cooke and question whether he truly said enough.

If Benty's orders were vague, we still wouldn't know exactly who was responsible for that since Custer's direct words are not known. Cooke either did exactly as told and his note is either sufficient or unsufficient but Custer's direct responsibility altogether, or it was summed up and Benteen didn't get enough out of it as a result of Cooke's wording.

Considering that the very gesture of a hand is generally good enough to signal most and many military movements, I can't understand why it would be so difficult to understand a note. Basically it was either Benteen making excuses, or the military wasn't as sharp as we'd think they ought to be.

[tbw]

Strange,

I can certainly see where CC is coming from. There were many people who wrote articles and books after the battle, continuing on ad infinitum to this day, about Custer being a glory seeker. And it can certainly appear that way, and who's to say he is wrong on all counts? Certainly not me. I personally don't believe that's the case, but, like some areas of this battle, this is one of them that can't be proven one way or another. It can also appear as though Custer made bad decisions that day. Again, I don't think it was entirely his fault, but that is my personal opinion based on a number of factors. But who's to say that CC is entirely wrong on this score? Certainly not me. The jury is still out on much of this battle. I try to present some facts to counter CC's claims, that is the natural part of discussions like these. And in expectation I sure expect that he counter with his own. And alot of it has to do with perception. Some people see things differently, think differently, and I think it makes discussions like this one more interesting from their perspective. I've personally been in discussions where what I had to say was outright rejected, laughed at and even derided in scorn, even though I presented evidence (not mere opinion) to the contrary, so I know how that feels. Its like saying Reno and Benteen knew Custer and his men were defeated by the late afternoon of the 25th. And someone arguing the other way by scorn and derision. The evidence, which some would say I don't have?....

The COI , so Benteen said, didn't know how to get certain facts from him. He stated that he didn't know that Custer had been killed and/or that the whole command had been wiped out. What part of that statement could be interpreted as wrong? The individual person - "Custer" - and - "his whole command" - denote what had occurred, but what if they asked the questions differently to infer "any part" of his command rather than limit it to only 2 choices? Was this what Benteen was alluding to? Especially when he and others said they thought he, Custer, and perhaps "some survivors" of his battle had beat it back to Terry? Again, its the perception of this kind of thing that matters, and the same applies to CC's perceptions about Custer. Benteen was a crafty one alright, and he sure wouldn't give them more information that was necessary with regards to Custer and his men. But there is one fact that most don't discern. Reno, Benteen and their men used the disciplines of Measurement and Signature Intelligence and the latent forensics that go with it. By late in the afternoon of June 25th when they heard the sound of the bullets being fired at them had changed from a pop-pop-pop - thud to a crack.....crack.....crack..... Ker-thud indicating that 220+/- of those Indians were using Custer's carbines taken from the dead of his battalion and clearly indicating to them his total annihilation, they knew.

If CC can breathe life into his thesis by providing new or perhaps some unheard evidence, I'm all for it, and more than willing to listen.

[cinnamon]

"His bad decisions leading up to the battle appear non-intellectual" we are still discussing today, more than one century later which decision he made, I think you're making opinions on "air" basis.
What is a fact is that Custer sent Martin back to Benteen and that everyone here seems to don't watch through the lines of what Martin stated, and what Cooke said handling the message to Martin: Custer said to Martin to tell Benteen "to be quick, bring packs" and added that if he could he had to come back to report, if not he had to stay with Benteen. How was he supposed to come back more quick than quick? The 2 options suggest Custer needed 2 distinct things from both Benteen and Martin. Cooke confirmed to Martin he had to come back the same way they've done otherwise he had to stay with Benteen in case of danger...what does this suggest to you?

[crazycanuck]

If Custer was aware of the of hot air,smoke or gas balloons and what they could do for recognizance,then it clearly shows that he believes in scouting areas for enemy location. Just that he couldn't transfer what he knew to be correct into real life situation. How can you send Reno blindly chasing forty Indians into camp,promise support and then gallop off yourself looking for a flanking move and God knows where this flanking move will take place.Everyone including Reno should of known where and when support will come. Custer didn't do his homework at West Point nor at the LBH. I personally believe Custer was gambling with his soldiers lifes on his last big coup ,thus Kellog the reporter,and again against orders. Just my opinion.

[crazycanuck]

TBW , I agree they may have believed something wasn't right up north therefore Weir thought they should take a look maybe out of guilt, or he didn't want to known as associates of the Benteen - Reno stay at home approach and of course those gunshots could be soldiers who need help, I mean how can you say TBW that the Indians now have the soldiers guns and are making the big noise, it could of been the soldiers. Of course when they got to Weir point they could see somebody shooting people on the ground and then the charge toward them. Then for sure you could say the Indians have the carbines. Benteen and Reno dragged along because they were being upstaged and looking cowardly.

[crazycanuck]

You would think Crook would of communicated about his return to Goose Creek but wasn't Custer ordered to send a scout to Crook for information as to what is going on, so the failure of Custer to recieve such intelligence lies with both Crook and Custer but mostly Custer rather than Crook in my opinion, if you are following the letter of law and command.

[crazycanuck]

Kanipe supposedly was told near Reno Hill to tell Mcdougall to come quick, a big camp and bring packs and if any packs come loose cut them off, and come straight overland. Martinis message probably written Medicine Coulee by Cooke was about the same. "Benteen come on. big village.be quick. bring packs w.w. cooke p.s. bring packs" To me these messages don't sound urgent, Custer is under no fear at this time, but is thinking hey what the heck Benteen and Mcdougall, "if you guys aren't to busy over there, come on over this way, and by the way could you come quickly and bring some packs there is a big village here, you know just in case I have to use some ammo and I quess I can let you in on some action since I Custer will get all the recognition having found all the Indians.I might need some help so get over here you guys". This just my opinion that the be quick and bring packs aren't urgent. I would of used different lanquage if I wanted these guys right now.Hey and no mention of Renos activites. What gives ? Custer poor communication.

[crazycanuck]

I mean sheesh TBW if we all think alike and then we aren't thinking.

[cinnamon]

Feb 20, 2011 8:52:41 GMT -5 crazycanuck said:

If Custer was aware of the of hot air,smoke or gas balloons and what they could do for recognizance,then it clearly shows that he believes in scouting areas for enemy location. Just that he couldn't transfer what he knew to be correct into real life situation. How can you send Reno blindly chasing forty Indians into camp,promise support and then gallop off yourself looking for a flanking move and God knows where this flanking move will take place.Everyone including Reno should of known where and when support will come. Custer didn't do his homework at West Point nor at the LBH. I personally believe Custer was gambling with his soldiers lifes on his last big coup ,thus Kellog the reporter,and again against orders. Just my opinion.

Custer didn't sent blindly Reno. You still are making claims suspended in air