Did He Obey Orders?

[whitebull]

If you asked a million people the above question, everyone who believes Custer was a arrogant, glory seeking fool would respond that he did not obey Terry's orders. Everyone who saw him as a courageous fighter willing to take a calculated risk and win would say that he did follow orders.

In other words, the answer is based on a persons beliefs and not the actual facts, I think!

[joewiggs]

I believe that Custer obeyed orders. To assume that a man of his military experience, commitment, and honor would not do so is hardly reasonable in my humble opinion.

The only viable exemption to that line of thought (for my purposes) is the understanding that a "Field Commander" has the unequivocal authority and responsibility to conform these orders to allow for scenarios that are unanticipated in the original orders. To believe that Custer was bounded by written words of how he should carry out his orders are simply not realistic. Terry full well understood this and worded his wishes accordingly.

The only order that was not up for any alteration, I believe, was to find the Indians and punish them! Even Terry's order for Custer to continue south if a "trail" was discovered was to ensure that the Indians did not escape in that direction. He did not destroy the Indians not because he didn't try but because it became physically impossible to do so.

I am honestly not suggesting that Custer was an infallible automaton incapable of making mistakes;he did and paid dearly for them.

[tbw]

If we're talking about Benteen. Of course he didn't.

If we're talking about Reno. Of course he did.

If we're talking about Custer. Prove that he didn't.

[strange]

May 28, 2012 20:02:34 GMT -5 tbw said:

If we're talking about Benteen. Of course he didn't.

If we're talking about Reno. Of course he did.

If we're talking about Custer. Prove that he didn't.

Reno didn't obey the order to charge the village, thats one he didn't follow through on. He engaged them, but didn't do it for very long and certainly didn't charge them. Other than that, he didn't perform well but he did basically follow orders.

Custer, regarding orders from Terry, followed all of the few orders that were there. Everyone who says he didn't follow orders is completely ignorant of what orders he had. The one thing that was in there, scout to the south, he did that.... he sent Benteen to do that and actually diminished his manpower to do that.

[tbw]

May 28, 2012 20:48:11 GMT -5 strange said:

May 28, 2012 20:02:34 GMT -5 tbw said:

If we're talking about Benteen. Of course he didn't.

If we're talking about Reno. Of course he did.

If we're talking about Custer. Prove that he didn't.

Reno didn't obey the order to charge the village, thats one he didn't follow through on. He engaged them, but didn't do it for very long and certainly didn't charge them. Other than that, he didn't perform well but he did basically follow orders.

Custer, regarding orders from Terry, followed all of the few orders that were there. Everyone who says he didn't follow orders is completely ignorant of what orders he had. The one thing that was in there, scout to the south, he did that.... he sent Benteen to do that and actually diminished his manpower to do that.

Interesting view there Sir Strange. But, what exactly was Reno's orders?... What did Reno say his orders were? And do you believe him?

[tbw]

The thing about this is Sir Strange, you could, as some do, read a 100 sources, probably more if you'd like, and have them all not be diligent to the very words you are looking for. Those words that send him to court, convict him and have him hung. You will, more than likely run into that age old debate on whether or not Custer actually gave him those orders in person or not, and that is a big deal, as there'd be no mistake about what Custer's intentions for his little foray across the river and through the woods was all about, as there seems to be today. And after consulting the gods of literature, those unimpeachable sources of sage knowledge and good will towards all men, because they couldn't have been wrong, it would of course be your turn to Cherry pick the evidence so you could diligently find amongst at least one of those 100 a source from which the cherries would be the ripest for you. And remember to hang your hat on that one's reputation as being the most correct in spite of the fact that the other 99 said is so many words it was all bunk, blather and crap. There are those Icons of written LBH prose and poetry out there and all of them have, at one time or another, tried to expose the truth according to their prejudices and biases, and all have failed or we'd know more today than we do - and the mystery's all solved and no where for us to go, but that isn't the case and whether it be 2 or 3 who's sage wisdom from which to primarily draw your conclusions, they couldn't have been wrong, could they? Surely not, they themselves have become icons large of the truth, great of justice and quite expected, respect only the American way. They then surely wouldn't have distorted anything according to their own preconcieved notions would they? They wouldn't dare take anything out of context would they? And what of their best guess estimates? Did they misquote? Did they ignore crucial detail that seemed out of context, or was it something that they just didn't agree with? John Gray did that, he'd use the proverbial (...) when he wanted to cut off an important segment of what someone had said to prove his point, yet when one went and found the object clause, sentence or paragraph, it disproved what he was trying to cherry pick from it. And he did it again with the Indians and what they said trying to fit his square block into their round hole by changing sentence structure and thus its very meaning. The LBH doesn't invite cherry picking enthusiast from around the world, its got enough distortion problems with those authors who've done it for over 135 years and are continuing to do it today to prove their self biased theories correct. What it is Sir Strange for all of us is, what we believe to be true, what our research tell us it is, not what someone else's research or belief tells us it is. Tread lightly through those voluminous masses of documentation, and always look for the prejudice and bias first and foremost, as you are sure to find it. Once found it is easy enough to ignore it in their works, and see it for what it is. Just as in the example I did give of John Gray's. Like any tortoise that's been away from the water too long, they'll stick their head out each and every time to get to it all the faster, as most conclusions are, and its up to people like us, who know what the truth should look like to chop their heads off when they do, for it is the only way to preserve what little truth there is of it.

[joewiggs]

I have spent a great deal of time going over the transcripts of the Reno inquiry, particularly Reno's responses. Recorded Lee was able to show (numerous times) that Reno's written statements in his official report days after the battle were in direct contradiction to his verbal responses at the inquiry.

Recorder Lee even asked Reno would it not be more likely to have remembered an event shortly after it occurred rather than years later?

Reno responded: No Sir!

This of course does not prove or disapprove whether he followed orders but, a response such as this gives one a hint of Reno's character:Deplorable!

The singular bit of information that everyone appeared to agree upon was the order Reno received rergarding his charge to the village. How he received it was, of course, disputed. Part of that order was to "charge the village" which Reno did not do. Therefore, Dr. Strange is quite correct!

Whether Reno should have charged the village is another question entirely. The fact remains, however, that he did not do so and thus did not follow that particular order!

Regarding Custer's culpbibilty i following orders,his series of "suggestions" from Terry were predicated upon speculation only; the exact position of the village was unknown to everyone including Terry. Terry's opinion that the Indian camp was on the Little big Horn was not a defitive conclusion as simply saying "on the Little Big Horn" does nothing to pin point the mobile adversaries enough to make success a certainty or even a plausible possibility.

Terry did order Custer to keep south if the "trail" was detected to be going in that general which, in fact, the trail did.

Had Custer followed that "order", he would have travel 40 extra miles away from the village, assuredly would have been spotted by Indian scouts while doing so, and would not have anywhere been in the area when the village would have met Terry coming up from the north. As a result, the subsequent headlines would have ran something like this "Terry wiped out while Custer roams south!" (borrowed from Connell).

That is why a "field commander" is given discretion to alter orders as he becomes the first commander to become aware of and, entirely responsible for,the ever changing, fluid and unknown circumstances that are created in battle.

[tbw]

May 31, 2012 13:57:02 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

I have spent a great deal of time going over the transcripts of the Reno inquiry, particularly Reno's responses. Recorded Lee was able to show (numerous times) that Reno's written statements in his official report days after the battle were in direct contradiction to his verbal responses at the inquiry.

Recorder Lee even asked Reno would it not be more likely to have remembered an event shortly after it occurred rather than years later?

Reno responded: No Sir!

This of course does not prove or disapprove whether he followed orders but, a response such as this gives one a hint of Reno's character:Deplorable!

The singular bit of information that everyone appeared to agree upon was the order Reno received rergarding his charge to the village. How he received it was, of course, disputed. Part of that order was to "charge the village" which Reno did not do. Therefore, Dr. Strange is quite correct!

Whether Reno should have charged the village is another question entirely. The fact remains, however, that he did not do so and thus did not follow that particular order!

Regarding Custer's culpbibilty i following orders,his series of "suggestions" from Terry were predicated upon speculation only; the exact position of the village was unknown to everyone including Terry. Terry's opinion that the Indian camp was on the Little big Horn was not a defitive conclusion as simply saying "on the Little Big Horn" does nothing to pin point the mobile adversaries enough to make success a certainty or even a plausible possibility.

Terry did order Custer to keep south if the "trail" was detected to be going in that general which, in fact, the trail did.

Had Custer followed that "order", he would have travel 40 extra miles away from the village, assuredly would have been spotted by Indian scouts while doing so, and would not have anywhere been in the area when the village would have met Terry coming up from the north. As a result, the subsequent headlines would have ran something like this "Terry wiped out while Custer roams south!" (borrowed from Connell).

That is why a "field commander" is given discretion to alter orders as he becomes the first commander to become aware of and, entirely responsible for,the ever changing, fluid and unknown circumstances that are created in battle.

One correction. "...charge the village after." After what?

Also these orders as we understand them is predicated upon what Reno told us they were, is that not true? Without Reno's statements as to what his orders were, what would we assume they would be? OR, in other words, do you believe Reno's story, is what it comes down to. And if you do, why?

[tbw]

May 31, 2012 13:57:02 GMT -5 joewiggs said:

I have spent a great deal of time going over the transcripts of the Reno inquiry, particularly Reno's responses. Recorded Lee was able to show (numerous times) that Reno's written statements in his official report days after the battle were in direct contradiction to his verbal responses at the inquiry.

Recorder Lee even asked Reno would it not be more likely to have remembered an event shortly after it occurred rather than years later?

Reno responded: No Sir!

This of course does not prove or disapprove whether he followed orders but, a response such as this gives one a hint of Reno's character:Deplorable!

The singular bit of information that everyone appeared to agree upon was the order Reno received rergarding his charge to the village. How he received it was, of course, disputed. Part of that order was to "charge the village" which Reno did not do. Therefore, Dr. Strange is quite correct!

Whether Reno should have charged the village is another question entirely. The fact remains, however, that he did not do so and thus did not follow that particular order!

Regarding Custer's culpbibilty i following orders,his series of "suggestions" from Terry were predicated upon speculation only; the exact position of the village was unknown to everyone including Terry. Terry's opinion that the Indian camp was on the Little big Horn was not a defitive conclusion as simply saying "on the Little Big Horn" does nothing to pin point the mobile adversaries enough to make success a certainty or even a plausible possibility.

Terry did order Custer to keep south if the "trail" was detected to be going in that general which, in fact, the trail did.

Had Custer followed that "order", he would have travel 40 extra miles away from the village, assuredly would have been spotted by Indian scouts while doing so, and would not have anywhere been in the area when the village would have met Terry coming up from the north. As a result, the subsequent headlines would have ran something like this "Terry wiped out while Custer roams south!" (borrowed from Connell).

That is why a "field commander" is given discretion to alter orders as he becomes the first commander to become aware of and, entirely responsible for,the ever changing, fluid and unknown circumstances that are created in battle.

I think the problem we have with the RCOI is that its not all there. As someone who has studied this document, what is left of it anyway, there are those moments when the testimony can't be found for the sake of the conclusions, or even the other way around. One such example just to illustrate how fickle it is to belief the one giving account of what he thinks his orders were and those whose testimony never made it to print is this on page 549 where Jessie Lee is making his concluding remarks. You will note exactly how his words are phrased so there is no mistake of who was supposed to be supporting who, when and perhaps even where and who, even Maj. Reno, should have known what support was being given and where. This testimony, which was stated as testimony by Jessie Lee was to this effect:

pg 549

Capt. Moylan said he thought Capt. Benteen might come in on the left in the sandhills, and he supposed Gen. Custer would come to their support from the rear. [Okay we need not go any further, what did Capt. Moylan testify to? Who was to support who? Now watch what happens to Reno's supposed support...]

Maj. Reno must have known as much as his officers about the support in fact he knew that Gen. Custer said he would be supported but Maj. Reno could look to the rear and seeing no support, he made up his mind "to get out of that".
--------------------------

That such a crucial piece of testimony is missing from testimony, excepting Jessie Lee's retelling of it, its little wonder today that we have such a warped view of what went down that day. Even Capt. Benteen in his own words said that he expected Custer - to paraphrase, "come back to him". Yet we have those today who would try to retell this story by following the same old song and dance and not care to look any further than their own snotty nose for the evidence and then dare to blow it in our faces.

I'll not elaborate further than this on what went down that day, I don't have to, and wont ever again here in public. And its because there are those who think they've solved it all, and believe me, they haven't a clue, not a one, and yet its all about them and what the hell they think they know. Well, I'm perfectly willing to let them talk and write till hell freezes over, just as has been done for over 135 years, because their'll always be someone, somewhere to tell them where they can go and how far they can shovel it. And quite frankly, that's good enough for me.

[joewiggs]

it's good enough for me too!

[bc]

May 28, 2012 20:48:11 GMT -5 strange said:

May 28, 2012 20:02:34 GMT -5 tbw said:

If we're talking about Benteen. Of course he didn't.

If we're talking about Reno. Of course he did.

If we're talking about Custer. Prove that he didn't.

Reno didn't obey the order to charge the village, thats one he didn't follow through on. He engaged them, but didn't do it for very long and certainly didn't charge them. Other than that, he didn't perform well but he did basically follow orders.

Custer, regarding orders from Terry, followed all of the few orders that were there. Everyone who says he didn't follow orders is completely ignorant of what orders he had. The one thing that was in there, scout to the south, he did that.... he sent Benteen to do that and actually diminished his manpower to do that.

You are only part right Tokeca Wanji. Reno's charge order is an order to attack. Breaking off a charge to form a skirmish line is a standard cavalry tactic. I see nothing wrong with what Reno did assuming there were all the NAs to his front that he claimed were there.

I don't have Terry's written order in front of me, but towards the bottom there is a sentence that gives Custer the discretion to do he thinks he should do based upon the situation. That left things pretty much wide open for Custer.

bc

[strange]

Jun 1, 2012 22:31:47 GMT -5 bc said:

May 28, 2012 20:48:11 GMT -5 strange said:

Reno didn't obey the order to charge the village, thats one he didn't follow through on. He engaged them, but didn't do it for very long and certainly didn't charge them. Other than that, he didn't perform well but he did basically follow orders.

Custer, regarding orders from Terry, followed all of the few orders that were there. Everyone who says he didn't follow orders is completely ignorant of what orders he had. The one thing that was in there, scout to the south, he did that.... he sent Benteen to do that and actually diminished his manpower to do that.

You are only part right Tokeca Wanji. Reno's charge order is an order to attack. Breaking off a charge to form a skirmish line is a standard cavalry tactic. I see nothing wrong with what Reno did assuming there were all the NAs to his front that he claimed were there.

I don't have Terry's written order in front of me, but towards the bottom there is a sentence that gives Custer the discretion to do he thinks he should do based upon the situation. That left things pretty much wide open for Custer.

bc

Well, all I know is that Wallace said Cooke told them to charge the village, Varnum also got that line and was ready to do exactly that when suddenly he looked behind and saw that Reno was setting up farther out for his attack.

Wallace said they were told to "charge the village", Reno says a similar thing but says it in a way that sounds different, Reno said something to the effect of that he was sent to engage the indians or bring them to fight, possibly "charge after the indians". All of which would have different meanings than "charge the village" or "charge into the village" (gimme some slack if I misquote anyone).

I think Terry's thing you're looking for might even be at the BEGINNING of the letter. But I ahven't looked it over in a while. Nonetheless I have seen it. It was in his orders to scout to the south though and I'm sure Custer would have faced some reprimands if any Indians had gotten past him in such a way had he not obeyed the order.

While we're here (to everyone). I've been thinking about the "Benteen, Come on, Be Quick, Bring Packs ps Bring Packs" note.

Since this was addressed to Benteen and not Reno, what would this mean?

Was Benteen considered more in charge now? Was Reno not expected to come? Did Custer and his staff think Reno was already a goner?

[tbw]

Jun 2, 2012 0:05:57 GMT -5 strange said:

Jun 1, 2012 22:31:47 GMT -5 bc said:

You are only part right Tokeca Wanji. Reno's charge order is an order to attack. Breaking off a charge to form a skirmish line is a standard cavalry tactic. I see nothing wrong with what Reno did assuming there were all the NAs to his front that he claimed were there.

I don't have Terry's written order in front of me, but towards the bottom there is a sentence that gives Custer the discretion to do he thinks he should do based upon the situation. That left things pretty much wide open for Custer.

bc

Well, all I know is that Wallace said Cooke told them to charge the village, Varnum also got that line and was ready to do exactly that when suddenly he looked behind and saw that Reno was setting up farther out for his attack.

Wallace said they were told to "charge the village", Reno says a similar thing but says it in a way that sounds different, Reno said something to the effect of that he was sent to engage the indians or bring them to fight, possibly "charge after the indians". All of which would have different meanings than "charge the village" or "charge into the village" (gimme some slack if I misquote anyone).

I think Terry's thing you're looking for might even be at the BEGINNING of the letter. But I ahven't looked it over in a while. Nonetheless I have seen it. It was in his orders to scout to the south though and I'm sure Custer would have faced some reprimands if any Indians had gotten past him in such a way had he not obeyed the order.

While we're here (to everyone). I've been thinking about the "Benteen, Come on, Be Quick, Bring Packs ps Bring Packs" note.

Since this was addressed to Benteen and not Reno, what would this mean?

Was Benteen considered more in charge now? Was Reno not expected to come? Did Custer and his staff think Reno was already a goner?

=========================

Q. You received an order from Gen. Custer through his Adjutant?
A. Yes.
Q. I would like you to repeat that order again,
A, "Gen. Custer directs you to move forward at as rapid a gait as you
think prudent, and to charge afterward, and you will be supported by the whole
outfit." I think these were the exact words.
Q, You were, of course, expected to charge the Indians?
A. Yes; certainly.
Q. Then that part of the plan was communicated to you by his Adjutant?
A. I don't know that that was any part of it.
Q. It was part of the attack, was it not?
A. It was the opening of the fight.

Q. You received an order in your subordinate capacity in the sense of
there being a commanding officer of the regiment - from Gen. Custer, to take
three companies and charge the enemy?
A, Yes, sir.
Q. Did you obey that order?
A. Yes, sir.
D. Describe just how,
A. Well, sir, ten men can be ordered to charge a million. There is some
discretion left in the hands of the commanding officer, I can give you
a very brilliant illustration of that in the Battle of Balaklava.,
Q. Had there been any casualties in your command at the time you halted
and deployed it as skirmishers?
A. Just one man had been hit. It made no difference, however, in regard
to my action, I should have done the same thing.
Q, Then you consider that you charged the enemy there.
A. I don't. consider that I charged the enemy, but I went far enough to
discover that it was impossible to do it. I knew nothing about the topography
of the country. It was afterward developed that if I had gone two or
three hundred yards further, i should have thrown my command into a ditch ten
yards wide and three or four deep.

As Lieut. Wallace states, it was about 10 o'clock when Col. Cook came to me and said "The General directs you to take specific command of companies M, A and G". I turned and said to him "Is that all". He said "Yes". I made no further inquiries,
but moved with my column to the second ridge; and between myself and the column commanded by Gen. Custer was a small ravine which developed further down into a tributary of the Big Horn River. I moved my column nearly parallel to Gen. Custer for some time previous to that. Capt. Benteen had started to the left up the hill, I had no instructions in reference to him, and I asked him where he was going and what he was going to do. I don't recollect his reply exactly; but it was to the effect that he was to drive everything before him on the hill. That was all that passed between us.
Q. How many companies did he have, and what direction did he take?
A. He had 3 companies, H. D. and K, and went over to the left of me; over to the hills and was very soon out of sight. The other two columns continued moving on opposite banks of the stream until we got down within sight of the Indian tepee that has been referred to. I can't tell the distance. We were moving almost parallel, when the comanding officer beckoned me with his hat to cross over to the bank on which he was. The crossing was a little difficult, so that when I got on that side, the battalion was somewhat scattered; and I was about opposite the rear of the column commanded by General Custer. I there received an order from Lieut. Cook to move my command to the front. When I got up there, there was a tumult among the Indians that were with us as scouts. They were stripping themselves and preparing for a fight. I afterwards understood that they would not go forward and Gen. Custer had ordered them to give up their guns and horses. I moved forward in accordance with the orders received from Lieut. Cook to the head of the column. Soon after that Lieut, Cook came to me and said "Gen. Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent
and charge the village afterwards, and you will be supported by the whole
outfit. "
========================

Not even Reno seemed to know what his orders were. Here is what he testified to at the COI. Both of these are exactly what he said:

"Gen. Custer directs you to move forward at as rapid a gait as you
think prudent, and to charge afterward, and you will be supported by the whole
outfit." I think these were the exact words.

"Gen. Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent
and charge the village afterwards, and you will be supported by the whole
outfit."

When queried about those first orders he was asked: Q, You were, of course, expected to charge the Indians? [To which he replied]
A. Yes; certainly.

You'll note it wasn't quote "the village" he was to charge in the first rendition of those orders but was clarified that it was "Indians" he was to be charging. Is there little wonder then we are confused by what he himself said those orders were? Indians or village? And there is a huge difference. Note the following: "I there received an order from Lieut. Cook to move my command to the front. When I got up there, there was a tumult among the Indians that were with us as scouts. They were stripping themselves and preparing for a fight. I afterwards understood that they would not go forward and Gen. Custer had ordered them to give up their guns and horses. I moved forward in accordance with the orders received from Lieut. Cook to the head of the column. Soon after that Lieut, Cook came to me and said "Gen. Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent and charge the village afterwards, and you will be supported by the whole outfit. " The question here is did Reno replace those "indians" he had testified earlier with the "village", and if he did, why? The reason is clear. The conversation Custer had with those scouts at the time is well documented in the Arikara Narratives. And Custer said to them that if they didn't want to immediately follow his orders to take out after those Indians, [Indians that both Girard and Hare had seen fleeing down Reno creek towards the big village in the valley - about 40 to 50 of them] that he would instead send Reno after them. Only Reno himself ever mentioned it being a charge on that village, and even then in earlier testimony he never said either Indians or village when he stated the "exact order". That he later invented "village" then gave him the go ahead to charge that village which he had no official authorization to do.

Q. You received an order in your subordinate capacity in the sense of
there being a commanding officer of the regiment - from Gen. Custer, to take
three companies and charge the enemy?
A, Yes, sir.
Q. Did you obey that order?
A. Yes, sir.
D. Describe just how,
A. Well, sir, ten men can be ordered to charge a million. There is some
discretion left in the hands of the commanding officer, I can give you
a very brilliant illustration of that in the Battle of Balaklava.

In other words it was Custer's fault that he charged the village, which he wasn't ordered to do. He was however supposed to fill the role of charging after those 40 to 50 fleeing Indians and use his own discretion if something else developed from there, so he really needed no lame excuse which he invented as "village" in the later order that wasn't really there in the first place. Question is, why?

What does fit here is what Girard had to say about those orders:

Q. What were the orders?
A. "Major Reno, you will take your battalion and try to overtake the
Indians and bring them to battle and I will support you." And as Major
Reno was moving off and had got 6 or 8 or 10 feet Gen. Custer said "and take
the scouts with you."

The after effects also pitch in here to help explain these orders. When it appeared there were too many Indians in front of him to handle, Reno sends two messengers to Custer to the effect that there are too many Indians for him to charge alone. This occurring about the time he was crossing the river, which was also where Girard expressed his concern to Reno of those same numbers of Indians and as to Custer laboring under the impression there weren't that many, ie. 40 to 50.


When Custer sent Martin back, it was too late in the game, as they say. And a lot of that was because of the way Custer went down that right bank. It is the only way to make any sense of this. There was no way for Custer to know how Reno was doing, and I really don't think once he sent him on his mission that he was ever going to be in any position to aid Reno. Reno knew that and so too did Custer. So you must take Reno out of any equation here when trying to figure out what Custer was trying to do. Sure, there were plenty of men atop those bluffs, Bouyer and the Crows, the flankers put out there by E company, enough to have given anyone the chance to say they saw Custer for the last time standing up there waving his hat and trying to valiantly say "We've got them now boys" yada yada yada. But he didn't. And he didn't because to put him up there and for him not to have seen what he should have seen, when he should have seen it, places too great a burden of proof that he was an idiot, which is all it does. I'm not for all the fancy pre-jitters moves that everyone tries to make a mountain out of a mole hill over. They never were made, period. When Custer finally did top a hill, and I dare say it was nearer where they all perished than most would think, and he looked down upon the village it would be minutes, if not seconds later when he sent Martin back after viewing that village. And make no mistake about what that message said: Benteen, COME ON, BIG VILLAGE, BE QUICK.... There need be no other rendition but the original and the intent is clear as a bell, and for those who think it isn't, they need to go there and not give five minutes time between when he, Custer sent that message, than when they attempted to attack that ford and try to tell anyone, and I do mean anyone with half a witted brain that it didn't mean exactly what it said, then they are nuts, because "come on - be quick" can't be said any clearer to Benteen than it was, and the reason lay right smack dab in the middle of it all, Big Village, and while you're at it cut out our ammo packs and bring them with you because we're going to be needing them. And the difference if anyone is looking for it was, that fine edge between "come on" - "be quick" life or not doing it and death.

There's no use to getting into Custer's head here, no use at all. Because after he sent that message there was no room for maneuver, there was no room for prancing all about that country trying to do this or that. Sending this company here to do so and so what, and where to and why for, it never happened, never, because there simply wasn't time for the exotic fascination with horse maneuvers that never happened. And anyone who buys into that really needs their own heads examined, because I'd imagine most of those people talk to themselves in silent places where flushing currents push gentle breezes on their fans, really need talk to themselves about it. It really isn't necessary to make one exhausting exhortation about where some dumb move by so and so was made and why or wherefore. Yet it keeps happening over and over. Keogh goes here so Yates can go there, thus and there for they end up over thar and by the by Custer goes here so they can go there. Its all BS. Custer went for the throat, and he needed no fancy assed time consuming maneuvers to accomplish what his goal should have been. Otherwise what you've got is an idiotic Custer and his jokers doing parade dances while the ants storm out of the ant hill, surround them easily and cut them down while still on the prance and dance circuit. All you have is an ignoramus Custer prancing and dancing, no cavalry charges, not taking any advantage what-so-ever of even what he said, "We've got them now, we'll go down make a crossing and finish up here and go home to our station". Nope, Send Keogh to some backwater ridge, take two companys and do what, go to Custer's hill and sit and wait for Benteen? Where the hell is the shock and awe in all of this? And all I see is that doe-see-doe fancy movement crap before he stands atop the hill and blows his own brains out, which he should have if they did all of that crap, I know I would have. Anyone with any brains at all knows he didn't order anything that fancy, there wasn't time for it. It was straight up shock and awe, and the Indians beat him at that game as Curley easily explained it. And still no one listens.

[strange]

Jun 2, 2012 3:47:23 GMT -5 tbw said:

Jun 2, 2012 0:05:57 GMT -5 strange said:

Well, all I know is that Wallace said Cooke told them to charge the village, Varnum also got that line and was ready to do exactly that when suddenly he looked behind and saw that Reno was setting up farther out for his attack.

Wallace said they were told to "charge the village", Reno says a similar thing but says it in a way that sounds different, Reno said something to the effect of that he was sent to engage the indians or bring them to fight, possibly "charge after the indians". All of which would have different meanings than "charge the village" or "charge into the village" (gimme some slack if I misquote anyone).

I think Terry's thing you're looking for might even be at the BEGINNING of the letter. But I ahven't looked it over in a while. Nonetheless I have seen it. It was in his orders to scout to the south though and I'm sure Custer would have faced some reprimands if any Indians had gotten past him in such a way had he not obeyed the order.

While we're here (to everyone). I've been thinking about the "Benteen, Come on, Be Quick, Bring Packs ps Bring Packs" note.

Since this was addressed to Benteen and not Reno, what would this mean?

Was Benteen considered more in charge now? Was Reno not expected to come? Did Custer and his staff think Reno was already a goner?

=========================

Q. You received an order from Gen. Custer through his Adjutant?
A. Yes.
Q. I would like you to repeat that order again,
A, "Gen. Custer directs you to move forward at as rapid a gait as you
think prudent, and to charge afterward, and you will be supported by the whole
outfit." I think these were the exact words.
Q, You were, of course, expected to charge the Indians?
A. Yes; certainly.
Q. Then that part of the plan was communicated to you by his Adjutant?
A. I don't know that that was any part of it.
Q. It was part of the attack, was it not?
A. It was the opening of the fight.

Q. You received an order in your subordinate capacity in the sense of
there being a commanding officer of the regiment - from Gen. Custer, to take
three companies and charge the enemy?
A, Yes, sir.
Q. Did you obey that order?
A. Yes, sir.
D. Describe just how,
A. Well, sir, ten men can be ordered to charge a million. There is some
discretion left in the hands of the commanding officer, I can give you
a very brilliant illustration of that in the Battle of Balaklava.,
Q. Had there been any casualties in your command at the time you halted
and deployed it as skirmishers?
A. Just one man had been hit. It made no difference, however, in regard
to my action, I should have done the same thing.
Q, Then you consider that you charged the enemy there.
A. I don't. consider that I charged the enemy, but I went far enough to
discover that it was impossible to do it. I knew nothing about the topography
of the country. It was afterward developed that if I had gone two or
three hundred yards further, i should have thrown my command into a ditch ten
yards wide and three or four deep.

As Lieut. Wallace states, it was about 10 o'clock when Col. Cook came to me and said "The General directs you to take specific command of companies M, A and G". I turned and said to him "Is that all". He said "Yes". I made no further inquiries,
but moved with my column to the second ridge; and between myself and the column commanded by Gen. Custer was a small ravine which developed further down into a tributary of the Big Horn River. I moved my column nearly parallel to Gen. Custer for some time previous to that. Capt. Benteen had started to the left up the hill, I had no instructions in reference to him, and I asked him where he was going and what he was going to do. I don't recollect his reply exactly; but it was to the effect that he was to drive everything before him on the hill. That was all that passed between us.
Q. How many companies did he have, and what direction did he take?
A. He had 3 companies, H. D. and K, and went over to the left of me; over to the hills and was very soon out of sight. The other two columns continued moving on opposite banks of the stream until we got down within sight of the Indian tepee that has been referred to. I can't tell the distance. We were moving almost parallel, when the comanding officer beckoned me with his hat to cross over to the bank on which he was. The crossing was a little difficult, so that when I got on that side, the battalion was somewhat scattered; and I was about opposite the rear of the column commanded by General Custer. I there received an order from Lieut. Cook to move my command to the front. When I got up there, there was a tumult among the Indians that were with us as scouts. They were stripping themselves and preparing for a fight. I afterwards understood that they would not go forward and Gen. Custer had ordered them to give up their guns and horses. I moved forward in accordance with the orders received from Lieut. Cook to the head of the column. Soon after that Lieut, Cook came to me and said "Gen. Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent
and charge the village afterwards, and you will be supported by the whole
outfit. "
========================

Not even Reno seemed to know what his orders were. Here is what he testified to at the COI. Both of these are exactly what he said:

"Gen. Custer directs you to move forward at as rapid a gait as you
think prudent, and to charge afterward, and you will be supported by the whole
outfit." I think these were the exact words.

"Gen. Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent
and charge the village afterwards, and you will be supported by the whole
outfit."

When queried about those first orders he was asked: Q, You were, of course, expected to charge the Indians? [To which he replied]
A. Yes; certainly.

You'll note it wasn't quote "the village" he was to charge in the first rendition of those orders but was clarified that it was "Indians" he was to be charging. Is there little wonder then we are confused by what he himself said those orders were? Indians or village? And there is a huge difference. Note the following: "I there received an order from Lieut. Cook to move my command to the front. When I got up there, there was a tumult among the Indians that were with us as scouts. They were stripping themselves and preparing for a fight. I afterwards understood that they would not go forward and Gen. Custer had ordered them to give up their guns and horses. I moved forward in accordance with the orders received from Lieut. Cook to the head of the column. Soon after that Lieut, Cook came to me and said "Gen. Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent and charge the village afterwards, and you will be supported by the whole outfit. " The question here is did Reno replace those "indians" he had testified earlier with the "village", and if he did, why? The reason is clear. The conversation Custer had with those scouts at the time is well documented in the Arikara Narratives. And Custer said to them that if they didn't want to immediately follow his orders to take out after those Indians, [Indians that both Girard and Hare had seen fleeing down Reno creek towards the big village in the valley - about 40 to 50 of them] that he would instead send Reno after them. Only Reno himself ever mentioned it being a charge on that village, and even then in earlier testimony he never said either Indians or village when he stated the "exact order". That he later invented "village" then gave him the go ahead to charge that village which he had no official authorization to do.

Q. You received an order in your subordinate capacity in the sense of
there being a commanding officer of the regiment - from Gen. Custer, to take
three companies and charge the enemy?
A, Yes, sir.
Q. Did you obey that order?
A. Yes, sir.
D. Describe just how,
A. Well, sir, ten men can be ordered to charge a million. There is some
discretion left in the hands of the commanding officer, I can give you
a very brilliant illustration of that in the Battle of Balaklava.

In other words it was Custer's fault that he charged the village, which he wasn't ordered to do. He was however supposed to fill the role of charging after those 40 to 50 fleeing Indians and use his own discretion if something else developed from there, so he really needed no lame excuse which he invented as "village" in the later order that wasn't really there in the first place. Question is, why?

What does fit here is what Girard had to say about those orders:

Q. What were the orders?
A. "Major Reno, you will take your battalion and try to overtake the
Indians and bring them to battle and I will support you." And as Major
Reno was moving off and had got 6 or 8 or 10 feet Gen. Custer said "and take
the scouts with you."

The after effects also pitch in here to help explain these orders. When it appeared there were too many Indians in front of him to handle, Reno sends two messengers to Custer to the effect that there are too many Indians for him to charge alone. This occurring about the time he was crossing the river, which was also where Girard expressed his concern to Reno of those same numbers of Indians and as to Custer laboring under the impression there weren't that many, ie. 40 to 50.


When Custer sent Martin back, it was too late in the game, as they say. And a lot of that was because of the way Custer went down that right bank. It is the only way to make any sense of this. There was no way for Custer to know how Reno was doing, and I really don't think once he sent him on his mission that he was ever going to be in any position to aid Reno. Reno knew that and so too did Custer. So you must take Reno out of any equation here when trying to figure out what Custer was trying to do. Sure, there were plenty of men atop those bluffs, Bouyer and the Crows, the flankers put out there by E company, enough to have given anyone the chance to say they saw Custer for the last time standing up there waving his hat and trying to valiantly say "We've got them now boys" yada yada yada. But he didn't. And he didn't because to put him up there and for him not to have seen what he should have seen, when he should have seen it, places too great a burden of proof that he was an idiot, which is all it does. I'm not for all the fancy pre-jitters moves that everyone tries to make a mountain out of a mole hill over. They never were made, period. When Custer finally did top a hill, and I dare say it was nearer where they all perished than most would think, and he looked down upon the village it would be minutes, if not seconds later when he sent Martin back after viewing that village. And make no mistake about what that message said: Benteen, COME ON, BIG VILLAGE, BE QUICK.... There need be no other rendition but the original and the intent is clear as a bell, and for those who think it isn't, they need to go there and not give five minutes time between when he, Custer sent that message, than when they attempted to attack that ford and try to tell anyone, and I do mean anyone with half a witted brain that it didn't mean exactly what it said, then they are nuts, because "come on - be quick" can't be said any clearer to Benteen than it was, and the reason lay right smack dab in the middle of it all, Big Village, and while you're at it cut out our ammo packs and bring them with you because we're going to be needing them. And the difference if anyone is looking for it was, that fine edge between "come on" - "be quick" life or not doing it and death.

There's no use to getting into Custer's head here, no use at all. Because after he sent that message there was no room for maneuver, there was no room for prancing all about that country trying to do this or that. Sending this company here to do so and so what, and where to and why for, it never happened, never, because there simply wasn't time for the exotic fascination with horse maneuvers that never happened. And anyone who buys into that really needs their own heads examined, because I'd imagine most of those people talk to themselves in silent places where flushing currents push gentle breezes on their fans, really need talk to themselves about it. It really isn't necessary to make one exhausting exhortation about where some dumb move by so and so was made and why or wherefore. Yet it keeps happening over and over. Keogh goes here so Yates can go there, thus and there for they end up over thar and by the by Custer goes here so they can go there. Its all BS. Custer went for the throat, and he needed no fancy assed time consuming maneuvers to accomplish what his goal should have been. Otherwise what you've got is an idiotic Custer and his jokers doing parade dances while the ants storm out of the ant hill, surround them easily and cut them down while still on the prance and dance circuit. All you have is an ignoramus Custer prancing and dancing, no cavalry charges, not taking any advantage what-so-ever of even what he said, "We've got them now, we'll go down make a crossing and finish up here and go home to our station". Nope, Send Keogh to some backwater ridge, take two companys and do what, go to Custer's hill and sit and wait for Benteen? Where the hell is the shock and awe in all of this? And all I see is that doe-see-doe fancy movement crap before he stands atop the hill and blows his own brains out, which he should have if they did all of that crap, I know I would have. Anyone with any brains at all knows he didn't order anything that fancy, there wasn't time for it. It was straight up shock and awe, and the Indians beat him at that game as Curley easily explained it. And still no one listens.

Well done here!

[whitebull]

Well done! You can't touch that!