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Post by crazycanuck on Nov 17, 2010 10:08:54 GMT -5
And besides how bright are you to send Reno down the valley talleyhoing, and then dillydally yourself in trying to find a suitable fording ? Meanwhile, knowing Reno could be up to his a$$ in pony poo. Great support and foresight.....not.
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cinnamon
Sergeant
our love will last forever
Posts: 132
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Post by cinnamon on Nov 17, 2010 10:26:17 GMT -5
as said above. If you are honest however, and not just tryin to paint Custer as an idiot, you will see that he wasn't "dillydallying" at all. The attacks practically started togheter. Remember Graham timing.
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Post by crazycanuck on Nov 17, 2010 11:53:24 GMT -5
fair enough
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Post by whitebull on Nov 19, 2010 20:18:54 GMT -5
Custer had no specific plans. Reno had no clue where the support was to come. I bet Reno could of used some help when the Indians were not retreating and Custer knew this early. He could of come back to help.But nooooo he is going to flank and hammer and anvil.... oops didn't happen. Reno could think of only one thing, his own "rawhide." Custer may or may not have been an idiot. That's up for debate. That Reno fell apart is pretty much a fact. Don't blame Custer for anything Reno did partner. |
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Post by crazycanuck on Nov 20, 2010 8:27:23 GMT -5
Custer AS WELL, was thinking of his own RAWHIDE as he retreated the hills to LSH . Custer was a fool who started to believe in his and others press clippings about him . You are never as good as you think you are or as good as other people say you are . It was Custer who sent Reno down the valley with lousy recognizance. I blame Custer for Renos retreat sir.
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Post by moderator on Nov 21, 2010 1:00:57 GMT -5
CC
In what way do you blame Custer for Reno's retreat? What would you have him do different than what he did do? And how would you have done it different.... lets say from the burning tepee on?
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Post by crazycanuck on Nov 21, 2010 6:43:55 GMT -5
Reno retreated to the bluffs, strike one,Yates retreated from ford b, strike two and Custer retreated from the North ford, strike three and game over(now he knows how Reno felt).I wouldn't send Reno down the valley and not support him as promised. I could flesh out the times when Renos plan was stalled,and the time Custer knew Reno was troubled.Custer should of come back and made a difference but Custer chose to proceed with a flank which was slow in coming and never did come. It is all kind of silly don't you think when Custer didn't have a plan of where or when he was to make a ford flanking move. I mean it defeats the whole purpose of supporting Reno but then Reno could be sacrificed in Custers thinking. If only those July 4 centennial celebrations and annoitments weren't coming so soon the megalmaniac would of been more patient and the job done properly...maybe.
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Post by crazycanuck on Nov 21, 2010 8:47:33 GMT -5
On another note, what do you think of Hairy Mocassin's,Goes Ahead and White Man Runs(Crow scouts with Custer who left before Custer proceeded further to battle) statements in 1907 that Custer viewed Renos disintegration on the valley floor for sometime near Weir Point before continuing further himself ? Is it true that President Roosevelt did not want this published ?
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Post by moderator on Nov 21, 2010 11:04:24 GMT -5
CC
On your ball playing analogy: It doesn't quite measure up to - nor answer the "lousy recognizance" you posed.
On Reno: There is no proof that Reno did retreat, in fact, he himself stated and others claimed it as a charge.
On Yates: There is no proof that Yates was the one who was sent to Ford B - OR - For that matter anyone else. All that is given are terrain descriptions and a fording area from the Indian Scouts/Guides, none of them ever claimed it was any particular ford. And in every single instance where a ford was mentioned by the Indian Scouts/Guides Custer was mentioned as being there, in person.
On Custer retreating from any North ford, what did Curley state about this? Seems you already answered this one yourself: "I agree the unexpected unfolded suddenly and Custer and his men faltered and lost control of the offence. The best defence is offense ( which Custer relished and savoured in the past but lost it here ). Gall and Crazyhorse took the intiative and the rest is history."
There was never any proof that Custer told Reno that he would support him, nada, zip, none. It was as fabricated as Reno's answer at the COI as to whether or not Custer ever gave him a direct order. There were just as many that said Custer did give him a direct order, enough to refute or at least call into question Reno's claim that he didn't. So any statement made by Reno concerning that order is suspect at best and misleading in the extreme if false.
On Custer's flank attack: This was standard op procedure in those days. It was known as a 3 pronged attack. We may criticize it and berate it and damn it to hell, but that's the way they did it back then. And both Reno and Benteen both knew what they were supposed to do and what Custer was doing at that time. It was well understood by both men. Reno stated in his Official Report that he knew Custer was going down the right bank at that time to effect a flank maneuver. He never questioned that at the time. Only after, at the COI did his song and dance story change along with his orders. Benteen knew as well. He said at one point in his testimony at the COI that he expected "Custer to come back to him". This small but insignificant statement is overlooked way too many times, but it does tell a lot about what Benteen knew. And he knew that his role was just as Custer stated it... To keep going and "Pitch in"/attack the Village in the Valley of the LBH as a Part of that 'Three Pronged Attack". And he disobeyed that order as he himself testified to at the COI by turning back.
"I could flesh out the times when Renos plan was stalled,and the time Custer knew Reno was troubled." Ok, state them, all of them.
"Custer should of come back and made a difference but Custer chose to proceed with a flank which was slow in coming and never did come."
Slow? Prove it. And just how was he suppose to "come back"? WHEN and at WHAT TIME? To do what - when and where?
AND: You still haven't addressed in your own plans anywhere your concerns about the "lousy recognizance" you posed.
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Post by crazycanuck on Nov 21, 2010 12:14:42 GMT -5
You can play he says she says all day.You call it a charge I call it retreat. The Indians accounted for a for B crossing attempt(are you calling them liars... prove it) . I suppose you can argue they are as forked tongue as anyone else wink wink ya know what I mean. I say there is proof of promised support and you say there isn't. Who are you going to believe me or you ? You say Benteen disobeyd the "pitch in" order and I say he did a great job in saving Renos men as well as his own . Like Moylan said, Custer made the biggest mistake in his life,by not taking the whole regiment in at once in the first attack. And as you know it wasn't to late for Custer WHO KNEW OF RENOS TROUBLES TO TURN BACK AND FOLLOW THE SOUNDS OF THE TROUBLED GUNS. Custers inability to adapt to changing events due to his self obssessed narcissistic personalty led to his and others doom.
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Post by moderator on Nov 21, 2010 12:44:38 GMT -5
What they said means everything, it is in fact the only evidence of any kind. And no I didn't call it a charge, Reno and his men did, you disprove what they said. And quite frankly I don't care what "you call it".
Quote directly from any Indian who named any ford in their statements that wasn't tainted by the person recording that information. If you are using Walter Camp, then you must read all of his work collectively and understand he as well as others had their own opinions and imprinted that upon what they said. Example: "If Custer went to ford B".... yada yada yada -so on and so forth.
The forked tongue didn't come from the Indians thats for sure. And it wasn't me who suggested that a certain President didn't want certain facts to come forth. Trying to have it both ways here with forked tongues?
It isn't about "me" or "YOU" or what we say or think, its about what they said, and there is enough evidence in either camp to dismiss what Reno said as any kind of evidence of support.
NO, once again, its not about ME or YOU or what I think or you think. Its what Benteen said at the COI and it simply must be taken at face value and no other interpretation is necessary.
And Moylan based what he said on what he knew before the battle or after? Which proves what if anything?
No I don't know, and you haven't proven anything of where Custer was at any time, or whether or not he could have turned back to do anything of value at any time.
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Post by crazycanuck on Nov 21, 2010 13:15:01 GMT -5
It proves...... oops....... I means it makes me think Moylan is smarter than Custer. You can't prove Custer couldn't or shouldn't of turned back toward the sound of the guns and at the same proven it wouldn't have gotten better results than the end fiasco we know of at LSH. No you don't know ! You haven't proved anything neither.
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Post by crazycanuck on Nov 21, 2010 13:21:03 GMT -5
Moylans comments were made or so they say they were made not before or after but during the battle on top of Renos bluff . . . . . yes which I know proves nothing like you.
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Post by crazycanuck on Nov 21, 2010 13:22:26 GMT -5
"Strategy is the art of making use of time and space". Custer was no Napoleon.
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Post by moderator on Nov 21, 2010 14:22:45 GMT -5
One thing I will not tolerate is a personal attack, be it upon me or anyone else here. I have no problem on you expressing your thoughts and opinions, none what-so-ever. But when you start a personal attack on anyone at anytime here, that's it buster, you're outta here, understand. This is your only warning.
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