Custer made mistakes....

[cinnamon]

It was not okay, of course, but that was the way they thought back in those days. Greedy were also indians on intertribal warfare, killing people, stealin lands to other tribes, captiving women and children making of them belonging to other tribes and traditions (this is assimilation too)and that happened more and more. Greed is a human fault. Red or white. Or black or yellow.

[crazycanuck]

I agree.

[crazycanuck]

How reasonable would people structure a society,guided by their self interest,if they couldn't know what sort of person they would be in it ? I think we would treat each other differently if we didn't know, but hey that's too philosophical.

[crazycanuck]

The Indians were trapped at LBH and no where to go thus fighting to the death to defend their families. Would you have done the same ?

[cinnamon]

To defend their way of life. I would have done the same yes. But I would have followed Custer on the slopes if I was in blue.

[crazycanuck]

Let us use our imagination. If you were designing an economic,political and social system(let's say in1830,Indian Removal Act as part of it), which allows everyone to persue their own self interest, but in designing this, you are completely ignorant where you personally are going to end up, with regards to your race,gender,religion,economic status etc. in this plan. After completing this adventure, it is pointed out that you are an Indian living in the LBH area and the whites are encroaching. My question is would you want to be that Indian,would you now think maybe I should of planned it differently or fairly because this kinda sucks where I am now ?

[cinnamon]

We cannot change past. But If I was an indian I would fight, if I was a soldier I would fight - surely if I was one 7th cavalryman I would have ended on Last Stand beside my General. About indian prolem, My point of view is the same of Custer where he states that "if I were an indian" etc etc. If I had been President of USA I would have made some different choices about that Act. Surely.
We are also to remember that not all what was done back in the years was bad, to think so is silly.

[joewiggs]

Nov 27, 2010 8:09:25 GMT -5 crazycanuck said:

Let us use our imagination. If you were designing an economic,political and social system(let's say in1830,Indian Removal Act as part of it), which allows everyone to persue their own self interest, but in designing this, you are completely ignorant where you personally are going to end up, with regards to your race,gender,religion,economic status etc. in this plan. After completing this adventure, it is pointed out that you are an Indian living in the LBH area and the whites are encroaching. My question is would you want to be that Indian,would you now think maybe I should of planned it differently or fairly because this kinda sucks where I am now ?

I like your idea and I hate to be a pessimist but....regarless of division and group assignment the experiment will fail because the larger group(s) will endeavor to control the smaller group(s) for personal gratification. the color or religion of a specific group is irrelevant when confronted by a people superior in numbers, weaponry, and greed. While your experiment suggest "equality" in all areas history has proved that the strong will devour the weak.

Even if the numbers are initially equal, each group will constitute individuals who are willing or not willing to participant in the experiment. The groups will osculate back and forward, assimilating and dissimulating until new groups are created.

Personal likes and dislikes will play havoc with any social assimilation that would include others who are "different."

In other words, your experiment will be a resounding echo of our historical past;repeating itself over and over again. Depressing isn't it.

[crazycanuck]

You might be right.

[Cutter]

Man was, and still is tribal.

[joewiggs]

Sadly, I wish that I was absolutely wrong. I wish that Crazycanuck's experiment would work. I wish there was hope for humanity to turn away from the past and change the future for the common good. the Egyptians of yesteryear believed in a philosophy of "Ma'at." This means doing the right thing because its the right thing to do, not because a lawman, judge, or an agent of government demands that you, "do it!"

Cutter thank you for your description of me. You know my heart! To be "tribal" is to be blessed.

[crazycanuck]

There appears always to be a check on the adage "Power corrupts ,absolute power, corrupts absolutely" The Enghish nobles checked the power of the monarchy(1200's), American colonialists checked the British Monarchy(sheeeeeeesh those damn Stamp Acts) (late 1700's), the Citizen against the French Monarchy(late 1700's), Ghandi sending the British home from India rule (mid 1900's), the Comrades against the Russian Czar (early 1900's), Mao's Chinese communists against the American backed Chiang Nationalists(mid 1900's), Cubans against the American backed Batista Regime (mid 1900's),Ayotollah Khomeini's overthrow of the American supported Shah's regime (1979), Nature reminding man of her awesome powers and her displeasure of any pollution abuse (late 1900's and continuing), Mandela inspired ending of Apartheid in South Africa (late 1900's). In conclusion, you would think any man with a conscience knows the degrees of difference between those who live well and those who live in misery, so if we we can't redristribute wealth more humanly (instead of the violent animal way) because of our nationalistic, political, social, religious, cultural and economic differences (and there is enough wealth to supply every 6.7 billion people on the Earth with an adequate living) then we have to come up with drugs (or something to give our head a shake) to take, so as to make us behave more humanly instead of the animals we are, then maybe, we wouldn't have had that poor Indian at the LBH whose land may of been stolen. Think of you or your child in that position, I'm sure you would not want that . And if it had been you, you would of planned different results, for it not to have happened that way. And if man is all about progress,power and srong taking advantage of the weak then I clearly understand others wanting nuclear capabilites (Iran,North Korea). People tend to listen ,sit up and take notice with nukes pointing at you. Lets apply The Universal Consequence Test and ask what if everybody does it that way ? That's a lot of nukes. Kinda of an ultimate check on each other ?

[crazycanuck]

But I digressed, back to Custer, people will give you as much crap as you are willing to take, Sitting Bull signed no treaties and wasn't going to take any crap reserve land. The Black American took the John Crow laws until he had enough of that crap and King wisely held up a mirror to the oppressors faces. Checks and ballances ,checks and balances . Slow humanly progress, we can't morally mature over night. In another thousand years we will be more empathetic, we just got to work through this fight and flight stuff for a while longer yet.

[cinnamon]

All the situations you counted are greatly different. Czar?? Comunism was infinitely worst than czarism. And Lenin was worst than the worst of absolutist tyrants. 20 years of comunism made more russians death than 300 years of Romanov kingdom. And they were the weak ones...
The indians were stealing land before whites (Black Hills were crow's land much before than Lakota, which call it "our land"), were killing and raping before whites, it's time to stop with this common places. Man is man. no difference in his wrongdoing. But we can count more than greed and progress in America. We can count on values of freedom and equality that has given the difference in the whole world. People fighting and dying for others letting a sign in history and coscience of the mankind as Robert kennedy or JFK or Martin Luther King. Just to cite the most universally known.

[cinnamon]

Nov 28, 2010 8:24:00 GMT -5 crazycanuck said:

But I digressed, back to Custer, people will give you as much crap as you are willing to take, Sitting Bull signed no treaties and wasn't going to take any crap reserve land. The Black American took the John Crow laws until he had enough of that crap and King wisely held up a mirror to the oppressors faces. Checks and ballances ,checks and balances . Slow humanly progress, we can't morally mature over night. In another thousand years we will be more empathetic, we just got to work through this fight and flight stuff for a while longer yet.

here you find me more agreeing with you.