Custer made mistakes....

[cinnamon]

But he didn't, as those raids continued. And the sister of BK told Custer as soon as the battle finished that even earlier that night another war party was returning in the camp with white scalps and got "so drunk that the cavalry could step into their lodges before they awoke".
BK was not exempt by the attack because he had to ask General Sheridan for peace, not Hazen, as this last had said to him. And also because he was camping out "in the porch" of the hostiles, and "had them in his own home" too. In the village there were white captives too, also a child which had his troath cutted by a squaw, later killed by Benteen. BK was aware of all this, was aware he had whites captives on the village but, no matter, he was still claiming his village peacefull.
Custer had the order to struck the villages of the hostiles on the Washita, which he did.

[crazycanuck]

Lt.Edward Godfrey said that the soldiers made no effort " to prevent hitting a women during the battle |" Is there any truth that ?

[joewiggs]

I'm not sure but, I do know that Custer gave specific orders to spare non-combatants. When he found out that the unit led by Capt. Meyer was violating that order by shooting at women and children Custer took immediate action to have Meyer cease what he was doing. Sadly, there must have been other violations by soldiers as well.

[cinnamon]

In fact joe is right. As soon as Ben Clark saw what happened he told it to Custer, and Custer gave immediate order to stop and respect the previous order to spare non combatants. He also gave order to regroup all prisoners in a great lodge far from the action. Custer himself, after striking right in the village toke an advantage high point southward, to direct the operations, some quarter of a mile beyond the stream.
The guilty soldiers Godfrey mention were Captain Myers's men. However, the most guilty were the Osages that had old rug with the Cheyennes.

[crazycanuck]

I will check it out. Thanks.

[crazycanuck]

According to James Donavan in A Terrible Glory page 64 ``Though there was a few instances of indiscriminate killing by the troopers,most of the innocent deaths were inflicted by the Osage scouts.The Battle of the Washita was a harsh war but no massacre. Custer had himself halted the shooting of some Indian women and assigned men to protect them``backed by Greene,Washita p.21. however that Custer capeable of cold-bloodedness when it came to non warriors among the enemy is evinced by his orders to Captain Myles Keogh in May 1867;``You will without regard to age,sex,age or condition kill all Indians you may encounter ,belonging to Sioux or Cheyenne,except if you are convinced they belong to certain bands of friendly (?) Indians,reported as being on the headwaters of the Republican..... it is not proposed to burden your command with prisoners``(Langellier et al.; Myles Keogh,page 108).

[crazycanuck]

An enigma wrapped inside of a riddle,enshrouded in a mystery(or something like that) . Custer good guy,bad guy... .`? Can we impose 21st century values on these guys?

[joewiggs]

You have arrived at a valid point to which, I think, is a critical component of the Custer Enigma. To impose contemporary values upon the individuals of the nineteenth century impedes understanding of the events that occurred in the past. Without a basic comprehension of the "mindset" of the participants of the battle, we can never guess as to the "whys" certain events occurred.

What is the answer to this dilemma? I don't know but I do applaud you for recognizing and, bringing to the forefront, a critical point that needs be discussed further.

[moderator]

An enigma wrapped inside of a riddle,enshrouded in a mystery...

David Ferrie - Movie JFK - Check www.IMDB.com for exact quote.

[crazycanuck]

I believe Churchill, Winston that is, and not Ward, started this enigma quote WW2. Since the Louisiana Purchase 1803 the mind set of the gov't appears to be a policy of assimilation,submission,removal or violence(whatever it takes...... not that the Indians didn't practice these events among themselves as well). The idea of Manifest Destiny etc.from the Atlantic to the Pacific kicked in after 1812 .The Monroe Doctrine 1823 checked European expansion in North America and now the government could concentrate on "The Indian Nuisance" and also to get on with "Go West Young Man". Custers mind at LBH would of been in my opinion thinking like this "you are up against exceptionalism",Sittting Bull, you submit, so I can remove you on to a reserve and assimilate you into my ways. It will be good for you as it is going to happen anyway and If you don't like it " I'm going to get violent with you". Do you think Custer could of come to Sitting Bull, to talk, instead of sending the Reno Charge, er I mean The Reno Tip Toe Through the Tulips Skippity Skip ? Or was Sheridan,Terry ,Custer and the dep't thinking enough of this silly talk,you had your chance to assim,submit and it is now violent removal time .

[crazycanuck]

Winston Churchill probably used the following quote for the first time publicly in a 1939 radio broadcast " Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma; I cannot forecast to you the actions of Russia"
I will give you some suggestions for the dilemma or the paradox we find ourselves with regard to 19th century Indian Department mindset conflicting with our 21st century sensibilites.

[cinnamon]

Custer was against war on indians in that period, and this order (he had received the same by his superiors) came after all the raids and seeing a little child raped, violed, covered with blood, left on the camp by the fleeing indians. In full war campaign. Wrong of course I would add, but if we could quote the indians quote they wouldn't be different. That was the mindset, so you and Joe are right. The men are to be judged in their time. But As said, Custer was against also the reservation system. I can quote a letter he wrote in that period, (Hanckock expedition): "I wrote a very strong letter recently AGAINST an Indian War, depicting as strongly as I could the serious results that would follow, putting a stop to trains on the Overland route, interfering with the work on the Pacific Railroad, all of which would be a National calamity. I regard the recent outrages as the work of small groups of irresponsible young men eager for war." This is what I call a Clear minded man. All what is described here happened later.

[crazycanuck]

But aren't you saying that the reason Custer didn't want Indian Wars is because it would cause a" national calamity putting a stop to trains on the Overland route,interfering with the work on the Pacific Railroad" thus interfering with gold (a precious metal) and greed((excessive or rapacious desire,esp. for wealth or possession) ? It is also easy for Custer to say he is against the "reserve system" and "against war" ,but isn't Custer being hypocritcal to personally do the oppossite of what he writes(actions speak louder than words)? Or would he claim, its out of my hands, and what can one person do about it, to make a difference ? I think Custer was politiking with " My Life on the Plains" saying the things to be said in polite company. You never know he may have had political ambitions.

[cinnamon]

Custer never was a greedy man, and what you call gold and greed, I call it America growth. This is not my life on the plains, however,. this is a private letter. And it was not easy at all: Among the common thoughts on indians, he was saying such things. Publicly. And he sent words of that effect to Sherman too, having for that his "head washed". This happened later more than once. Even at the Belknap scandal, were he denounced also the robberies by the Grant administration toward the indians. Custer was a soldier and had to obey his orders, however, a soldier can claim his beliefs, giving this effect you mention to do the contrary of what you claim. Claiming what Custer was claiming in that time it is not at all "the thing to be said".

[crazycanuck]

I call it greed,like Wall street insider trading(they know right from wrong) .There is legal growth and there is scandalous growth. Sheridan knew right from wong treatment of the Indians in my opinion but when everybody is doing it from The Indian removal Act 1830 down to successive administrations then it is okay... mob mentality towards the indians land..... what the h#$$ make hay while the sun shines er I mean spin gold. There is moral obligation to not obey immoral law.