Custer made mistakes....

[crazycanuck]

Truce ,smoke peace pipe, or something, I'm going to mellow out . Peace man.

[Cutter]

Well, seems to me a feller gets his digs in, then calls kings x, is not unlike some of the troopers who were fighting at the LBH, and then tried to surrender. The difference here is that I got respect for the troopers.

[crazycanuck]

I know you are but what am I ? It takes one to know one . So you are saying that you get your " digs in" and then "surrender", and also you say you have more "respect for the troopers" who threw down there rifles and cried mercifully for there lifes than you do for yourself. That's okay, sometimes I talk to myself too, not that there is anything wrong with that.

[joewiggs]

Nov 21, 2010 20:26:58 GMT -5 crazycanuck said:

Can you prove that Custer was not a jerk,fop,self obscessed and narcissistic as well as other things ? You remind me of people who think they know it all and the people who accuse others of what they are guilty of themselves(we evolved beyond that haven't we?). I mean if you can't see it in yourself you will never see it in others. We all do it . It's basic psychology 101 .You did take that course ? Maybe you didn't and know not what you say?

That is the critical "point" that you seem unable to fathom. We can not prove these things therefore we do not press the issue. You, on the other hand, seem to be obsessed with making unsubstantiated, unprovable, non-factual allegations as if you were describing the "Grinch Who Stole Christmas." It is so easy to kick a Lion when its dead, try kicking a live one for a change.

[crazycanuck]

Fop term for foolish man. Custer refused 2nd cavalry aid,refused gatling gun,refused to bring any sabres,laughed at Gibbons saying I'm not going to wait for you, ignored scouts warnings of the largest Indian camp ever,poorly scouted Tullouch if at all because he was racing to get to you know where,reduced feed for horses that affected there performance,split his command into three sending Benteen on a foolish mission when it could of been scouted with one company or less, Achingly slow in providing Reno with no support, showed lack of the Custer charge to get troops across the river,split his troops again making it easier for the Indians to pick them apart.And his most foppish mistake was not to take all the troops into the village from the south with concentration.Pickett charge style and lose a few men but job complete.I hope that takes care of the fool part. I also think he was a Dandy . . . oops that was his horse. Custer is dead but he was no lion, Richard was though,Richard the Lion Heart and Custer the Foolhardy. I'd rather be a live deer than a dead lion.

[crazycanuck]

Narcissist, a word, for the need of excessive self importance and admiration, from others as well.They tend to get bully rage and show disrespect when they don't get their way(Custer said in My Life on the Plains"Civilzation... can never civilize him"... the indians....that's disresectful).Custer was known for spiffy or should I say foppish natty uniforms(on his promotion to BG he wore a self designed black velveteen,gold lace,wide collared blue sailor shirt with silver stars sewn in a red necktie around his throat )and having numerous portraits of himself(did you see the one of him posing apart from McCellan 's staff and president Lincoln in 1862 so that the narcissist could be noticed?).He may of been the most photographed officer of the Civil War,some deserved many self promoted. Narcissist are bullies,Custer killed many women,children and old men at Washita and then fled when threatened by real men. The invention of the camera was like a modern day U-tube which can be full of delusions like Custer using the camera( Custer,you just shouldn't of been that IN to yourself). Great Indian fighter don't think so."Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunities".Custer had the opportunity at LBH but was poorly prepared. Hey, why do I have -1 karma when Custer had over 700 demerits at WP and wasn't booted outta there ?

[cinnamon]

Hey, man, Custer don't killed anybody at Washita, his orders were to save women and children and when he got the news someone was shooting also children (with rifles in the hands, e.g. Benteen) he sent a perentory order to spare women and children. Deaths in Washita were very very low (Greene) but where pumped for the media. Ben Clark witness is interesting and confirming my statements (he was not a pro custer).
Last, to answer your post above.
Custer refused 2nd cavalry aid He had wrong intelligences, as Terry had too.
refused gatling gunHave you never been to the Battlefield? That's a real abrupted land and gatling are very very heavy. It depends on what you expect to be your mission. He had to follow the trail and have no obstacles on his march when and if in touch with the enemy, as Terry's orders stated. Gatlings would have been really hampering his march, as were with Reno few days before. Gatlings are good to attack standing points, or warlike parties attacking YOUR standing points, but fits not at all with hilly chases.
refused to bring any sabres Again? Sabres, at the time of LBH were misused and it was natural to let them down. All the mission was builded on the surprise factor and to keep the most lightness to the cavalry, expected to have days of marches following escaping parties. But also, a factor is only sabres in the second 800 half were used just 2 times and with no results against indians. Sabres were viewed (by the Army, not by Custer) as a misused, good looking, parade accessory.Cavarly manual.
laughed at Gibbons saying I'm not going to wait for you He didn't said that. He just made a joke, soldier's joke when Gibbon told him to let some indians for their regiments too and he answered "no I don't" smiling. All troopers smiling.
ignored scouts warnings of the largest Indian camp everHe didn't ignored scouts, he knew they were sometimes exagerating on what they state but he was up on the hill looking for what they told they had saw. Unfortunately, morning fog arisen and he could see nothing
reduced feed for horses that affected there performance They had just 15 days rations, given by Terry (not Custer). Not knowing how long the march would have lasted (remember Custer claiming: maybe we should eat horse meat) that's normal. It's normal too with Cavalry manual were horses in campaing and before action are not to be feed or watered too much.
sending Benteen on a foolish mission It was not a foolish mission at all. It was to prevent indians escaping south. He had to be sure no indians escaping south.
Attacking as you says all from south was stupid and useless as the mission was made to close indians between the 3 forces of Terry Custer etc. Let them escape, and they would have escaped as afghans on the Afghanistan hills, would have compromised the Terry's general plan. You must look Custer actions in light of that plan.
He was a dandy? Who care?
You said disrespectful what I think instead a great truth: Custer claimed more than once that he didn't believed reservations and politics the best way to cope with "indian problem". He said that words you quote because of indian proudness - and you cut it from the contest just to show disrespect that he had not. He admired indians, (on his book there is this too, also his youth work "Red man") he understood they fight for surviving, but he was on the other barricade.

[crazycanuck]

I'm sure there is a colonel(pun intended) of truth do what you say ..... oops this does not apply Cinnamon to you... I thought you were the Kernel Cutter.1. Custers orders were to save at Washita(but he didn't ,one dead is alot).2. Refused 2nd cavalry because the "7th can whip them"... gee quess who is in charge of the 7th me me me the narcissist Custer .. why share the glory if you can pull it off yourself.... gamble that backfired ? 3.Sure could of used a couple of Gatlings on the East side of the ridge . . not as if the ammuntion packs under Mcdougall were Speedy Gonzales help for Custer at the North end of the ridge. 4. Yes I have been to the battle field. 5.Sabres could of been packed or some at least instead of the two that were snuck in. Reno could of used them in the Southern charge " Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunities " Custers lack of detailed preperation thus "Custers Luck" runs out. 6. Hotdog Custer meant I don't want your help Gibbons and I'm not going to share in the Indian gathering.... words have meaning. 7.Custer ignored the scouts because he had selective hearing and his mind was made up to get their quicky(travelled 84 miles in 34 hours with little rest to get to Crows Nest). 8. Talking about horses and feed, Secretariat was over fed the night before the final running of the Triple Crown and won by 31 lengths. Imagine how Custers horses could of performed if they had been treated better when Reno's men on their horses were being run down by the smaller but well fed and rested Indian ponies... once less scalp. Remember Terry picked Custer and its Custers job to insist on proper preparations. 9. It was foolish to send Benteen with THAT MANY MEN on a little fishing mission(maybe the narcissist one became even more narcissistic and thought he could whip them without not only the 2nd but Benteen as well. Reno sure could of used some Sabres and more men on his charge. . I mean the Indians aren't going to share tomahawks and lances. 10. Custer should of moved directly north to a greater distance instead of frothing at the mouth to get to the village quickly and he should of timed Renos charge instead of some lame seperate the women and children stuff to the north and my gawd how many Indians do you think Benteen is going to find to the South ? What are scouts for if not to be used and trusted to check things out ? I mean the bottom line is that Custer failed. "You can never civilize them" statement is disrespectful.And if you don't respect your opponents you can lose.Custer quote "I would be willing,yes glad,to see a battle very day during my life" Doesn't sound to respectful for life to me. Osama Bin Laden and other planners got away from Bora Bora though many Al Zawari etc were taken out later and Custer let the Indians get away from Little Bighorn. Oh well what the heck Crazy Horse was taken out,Sitting Bull as well and Indian veterans of the LBH at Wounded knee. "As things change they remain the same" and history continue to "repeats itself first as tragedy, second as farce".Nice chating.

[joewiggs]

Nov 16, 2010 9:24:54 GMT -5 crazycanuck said:

"Live by the sword die by the sword", which they didn't do, because they didn't bring any, but if they had the fight might of lasted longer than 40 minutes.

All the leading authorities (except you) are agreement that the battle consisted of several time segments which consisted of military moments by the four components of Custer, Reno, Benteen and the Pack train.

Custer's foray across country to Ford "B", then Ford "A" and finally arriving at Last Stand Hill was time consuming and his command suffered fatal losses while doing the entire process.

The actual portion of combat at last Stand Hill was approximately 40 minutes. had Reno came to the aid of these men the following three possibilities (among many) could have occurred:

A. All would have been wiped out;

B. Custer's Command could have been saved with the Reno contingency suffering additional losses;

C. The Indians may have retreated at the approach of a concerted and determined military front allowing a total military evacuation.

To encompass all of these scenarios into a forty minute timespan is an error.

[joewiggs]

Nov 22, 2010 14:36:32 GMT -5 crazycanuck said:

Fop term for foolish man.

Joe Wiggs
Please present to the forum your evidence to establish that a trained General who was honored and rewarded for his heroism in the Civil War was "foolish man." he may have committed foolish acts (we all have) from time to time but, doing so does not equate with designation of a foolish man.

This of course will exclude your obvious personal distaste for the man. No one here is interested in that. Afterthought. Please do not waste our time with a counter charge of proving that he was not "a foolish man" as any one who is capable of reading with an unjaundiced mind have already formed an opinion

.

Crazycanuck
Custer refused 2nd cavalry aid,refused Gatling gun,refused to bring any sabres,laughed at Gibbons saying I'm not going to wait for you, ignored scouts warnings of the largest Indian camp ever,poorly scouted Tullouch if at all because he was racing to get to you know where,reduced feed for horses that affected there performance,split his command into three sending Benteen on a foolish mission when it could of been scouted with one company or less, Achingly slow in providing Reno with no support, showed lack of the Custer charge to get troops across the river,split his troops again making it easier for the Indians to pick them apart.And his most foppish mistake was not to take all the troops into the village from the south with concentration.Pickett charge style and lose a few men but job complete.I hope that takes care of the fool part. I also think he was a Dandy . . . oops that was his horse. Custer is dead but he was no lion, Richard was though,Richard the Lion Heart and Custer the Foolhardy. I'd rather be a live deer than a dead lion.

JW
Custer did refuse additional Calvary as he was convinced that he had sufficient manpower. The aftermath proved him wrong, not foolish. His superiors agreed wholeheartedly with him that his command could defeat the Indians by their lonesome. Ironically, Gibbons command of infantry and calvary of around 400 men was deemed sufficient to defeat the warriors if called upon.

Custer's primary assignment was hinged on mobility. the guns would have hindered him to such a degree that the command's mobility would have been non-existent. Reno on his scout was hampered by these very same guns of which Custer was aware. These gums were constructed so that the man who fired it would have been forced to stand tall. How long would he have lasted?

Excluding T.V. shows, there does not exist any information that states Custer Custer laughed an anyone. the question was in two parts(paraphrase): "Now, Custer, let's not be greedy. Wait for us!"
Custer's response may have been to the first question.

There was absolutely no reason to scout Tullock as the fresh, current, and definite Indian trial was discovered by the command which undoubtedly, as proved later, headed in the direction of the Little Big Horn.
The scout, Herendeen, whose responsibility to make the scout, agreed with Custer that it would be senseless to make the scout.

Benteen was sent to the left to head off any of the Village attempting to escape south. A concern for Custer as he was aware that Terry emphatically warned him of preventing such an occurrence.

Reno's support came in a military "feint" at Ford "B" which was so successful that all of the warriors in Reno's military front withdrew and gather around Custer. Reno's command was saved by this action. Only Reno believed that "support" had to come form the rear.

The remainder of your comments are to convoluted for me to address at this time

[cinnamon]

you are just not reading what I say canuk, so it is useless for me. Just one thing, your retorical "one is too much", is ridiculous, as battles are not poker meeting or tea parties. Someone is supposed to die, unfortunately. And you're still blaiming him for the sabres!!! Read what I have said. And if you was already at the battlefield and still think gatling useful, well...Joe answered to you.

[crazycanuck]

Is someone suppose to die in a peaceful village like Black Kettles, who earlier that November attempted piece with Fort Cobb ? Maybe Black Kettle should of camped nearer his Kiowas, Cheyenne and Apache brothers and some innocent people might of been spared ? Anyways " Like a dog that returns to his vomit is a fool who repeats his foolry",which Custer clearly illustrated at LBH,but not so lucky this time.Thank-you and your support for recognizing my intricate and complex comments,isn't that what convoluted means ?
According to some, Gatlings could of been diassembled and harnessed to strong healthy horses or mules, and travelled with the soldiers at a reasonable pace. But maybe people were to impatient and or lazy for this preperation ? I hope this helps to undiscombobulate everyone .

[cinnamon]

What was found on the peaceful village of Black Kettle was an arsenal...just read the reports, and among you will find also much of the stolen things from the Solomon and saline River raids. I admire BK, but his village was not peaceful at all.
The entire pack mule toke 1 hour to come in...without gatling, at the reno hill. Come in, assemble it, position it , meanwhile look all the arrows and bullets fliying around you? Not possible, not useful.

[crazycanuck]

Both sides lied ,cheated,stole etc.and had excuses for vengeance , wasn't Black Kettle located in a designated peace zone, hadn't he attempted peaceful movements in November, which, you would think, make him exempt from Custers attack ? I'm not saying Custer was a permanent every day fool but he had days. I agree the gatling guns would of been slow .

[crazycanuck]

Is there any truth, that Little Rock, on Aug.19,1868, one of the chiefs in Black Kettles camp, in an interview with Colonel Wynkoop, said he would do his "best" to turn over the men from the Saline and Solomn incidents ?