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Post by Cutter on Aug 21, 2010 14:38:10 GMT -5
In the letter Benteen wrote his wife dated 7/04/76, he wrote that he rode at a "stiff trot." The dust hadn't settled on the field yet when he wrote that. In my opinion, too soon to start spinning a story.
If he had done what you say Joe, I think there would be a really good chance that the entire command would have been wiped out. Large enemy numbers on unknown terrain that is not conducive to cavalry tactics... In not knowing the terrain, the element of a swift cavalry flanking attack to support Reno were lost in finding a place to cross LBH. In weaponry the springfield was an excellent long range weapon, with plenty of stopping power. With copper shells, and contrary to what is written, I think jamming was a real problem due to the high rate of fire involved in the fight. That they didn't find that many cut shells I think means that on a battlefield that picked over thru the years, they were removed. The Henry and Winchesters were shorter range weapons, but had a higher firing rate by far. Also, arrows were perfect mortars to shoot from a concealed position. The indians brought the fight close in, in that style of fighting, they excelled. The fatigue of the men and horses, also added to the mix.
Then there's the problem with the packs, and where they were.
I've always thought it was a no win situation, and considering all the variables, terrain, weaponry, enemy numbers and tactics, freshness of the troopers and their mounts, the outcome couldn't have been any better then how it shook out... As I mentioned earlier, would be interesting if Benteen had Reno's mission. That's my take on it anyway. Sorry for the choppy wording, got a heat index of 108, and am in honey do mode. ;D
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Post by stumblingbear on Aug 21, 2010 17:59:27 GMT -5
Strange you make a good point but, in "To Hell with Honor" the author says that Benteen saw both riders when they approached him. It seems that if he did he should have figured out the Custer was dead ahead north.
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Post by Cutter on Aug 25, 2010 16:59:19 GMT -5
I get the impression that I'm the only one here who thinks Custer didn't have a prayer on that sunday. I think I should explain myself. Firstly, my meager knowledge on the written word of this subject shows in the company here. That will change in time, as I'm working at getting up to speed. Y'all know I did a good piece of growing up in Billings 48+ years ago. I would go out to talk to the crows that waited for the bus in front of my house. They used to say that Custer didn't have anyway of defeating the indians massed at LBH. My neighbor, a Mr. Smock, a interesting guy, would babysit me, and he was of the same opinion. Then there's my Dad, utah beach, battle of the bulge vet, said pretty much the same thing. So, during my formative years, I was steeped in that conclusion. In my new found zeal in this subject, I will look at the information with the understanding that information grows murky the further removed in time it is from the actual event. Will pick the most likely senario, and run with it, and that's what historians do, or should I say, should do. I will close in saying I will be hard pressed to change my view. ;D I'd like to add that when my buds and I would play cowboys and indians, nobody wanted to play Custer.
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Post by joewiggs on Aug 26, 2010 7:54:03 GMT -5
Guess what? I agree. He never had a change of winning but, he may have been able to extricate himself without such a horrific lost of men had Reno simple held on for a little while longer.
Reno's flight allowed the warriors to not only concentrate solely on Custer, it effectively disabled Benteen's, McDougall's, and Reno's command from the status of support. These men were so thoroughly demoralized by Reno's actions they ceased to be relevant to any hope of success in the successful out come of the battle.
Mutual support would have allowed the military units to cover each other while collaborating toward an escape east. Indian testimony supports the theory that escape in the direct was possible.
We should remember that the Indians did not want a fight. They were forced into it by Custer's catching then off guard. Once riled, they were more than willing to fight.
I envy your childhood memories and discussions with the Crow. I bet the board would like to hear more about it. what do you say?
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Post by Cutter on Aug 26, 2010 17:00:37 GMT -5
Well, the crow agency medical office was on the other corner of my block. Across the street was Deconess hospital. That hospital has eaten up my old neighborhood, the house I grew up in is now a parking lot. Anyway, being the bright and adorable child that I was, when I saw any of them waiting, I would go out and talk. They would talk about reservation life, tv shows, (They didn't think much of westerns), and pretty much anything they thought a kid in his first decade would understand. After my dad took me to LBH for the first time, I asked them about the battle, I remember "Mistake", "Custer shouldn't have been there", that sort of thing. I'll think on it, see if something jogs more memorys. The big one I'll never forget is when my grandmother came to visit from NYC and looked out the window and saw full fledged, blanket wrapped, moccasin wearing indians, she was scared to death. She used to drink "Four Roses", she drank that a lot during her visit. ;D Back then, the battle was memory of only 80 years.
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Post by Cutter on Aug 27, 2010 9:01:32 GMT -5
I might have given the impression that all the crows were in traditional garb, that isn't the case. There was a large number that were tho. I'd imagine most born at the turn of the century and before, (1800's).
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Post by joewiggs on Aug 27, 2010 13:49:57 GMT -5
Wonderful story! What a cultural shock for your dear grandmother! ;D I can not help but wonder how a young Crow must feel growing up next to a "monument" that is a testimony to the fighting prowess of their ancestors who died in that battle yet, not receiving a more significant contribution of recognition? I would love to see a movie that focused on the Sioux and Crow warriors that detested each other with the military aspects in the background. What an opportunity to digest the emotions, feelings, and fears of two Indian nations and how they came to be what they were at the time of the battle. When they and the military ultimately meet on the battlefield, the audience would than have a much better understanding of the "why" this battle had to be.
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Post by Cutter on Aug 27, 2010 15:20:34 GMT -5
Those old animosities are still alive and well. I went to western Montana for two summers a couple of years ago, and heard they were no joke. No, didn't make it to LBH, thought I would be back for a special trip, but it didn't pan out, if I knew then what I know now...... damn! This is a pic of flathead lake from my nephew's house... Attachments:
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Post by strange on Aug 27, 2010 20:47:08 GMT -5
Is that a little Gnome I see?
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Post by Cutter on Aug 27, 2010 22:25:27 GMT -5
I think your thinking of the pic of my grand niece Hanna's pic here. Oops, yeah, my step niece likes that sort of thing.... Attachments:
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Post by joewiggs on Aug 28, 2010 19:48:52 GMT -5
What a beautiful picture that encompasses an equally beautiful little girl!
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Post by stumblingbear on Nov 13, 2010 19:53:13 GMT -5
I hear tell that Benteen felt slighted at his assignment believing that Custer was sending him away from the fight. Only later did he realize that his slowness to act help seal Custer's faith. Even then he rationalized that Custer was to blame for everything.
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Post by joewiggs on Feb 2, 2011 14:23:10 GMT -5
The more I think about it the more I lean toward labeling Benteen a "sinner." Although he possessed a wonderful Civil War record and was a first notch combat leader, his animosity for those he took a disliking to was extremely unsettling.
In subsequent letters he wrote to friends after the battle, he admitted that he knew what the Recorder was looking for but, took immense pride in hiding that information.
This is a bold admission to his withholding the truth during the Reno Inquiry. An avid Custer hater, he believed it was more appropriate to hide the awful actions of Reno in order to destroy the reputation and credibility of Custer.
His hate was so entrenched that even Custer's violent death could not abate it.
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Post by strange on Feb 2, 2011 18:47:42 GMT -5
The more I think about it the more I lean toward labeling Benteen a "sinner." Although he possessed a wonderful Civil War record and was a first notch combat leader, his animosity for those he took a disliking to was extremely unsettling. In subsequent letters he wrote to friends after the battle, he admitted that he knew what the Recorder was looking for but, took immense pride in hiding that information. This is a bold admission to his withholding the truth during the Reno Inquiry. An avid Custer hater, he believed it was more appropriate to hide the awful actions of Reno in order to destroy the reputation and credibility of Custer. His hate was so entrenched that even Custer's violent death could not abate it. Well, he's definitely not saintly. As it is, a saintly person doesn't get that bitter. Of coarse every one sins.
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Post by joewiggs on Feb 3, 2011 14:28:46 GMT -5
How True. Even Saints are not totally sinless. My personal take on Benteen is that he would have never consciously left Custer's command to perish, unconsciously is another matter.
When Benteen arrived on Reno Hill he met a disorganized, psychological beaten, demoralized group of men, some of who, were sobbing like "street urchins."
Could the sight of these frighten men cowering among the shrubs and packs affect the fighting morale of Benteen's command? Absolutely.
As a veteran and renown combat leader full well understood that orders, at this point, may be given but few would be followed. When the horrific and unanticipated finale was brought to light, Benteen and many of the others simple could not believe that Custer was wiped out while they remained idle waiting for packs that contained beans, clothing, and personal items.
You see, the ammo packs could have been cut loose, accompanied by Benteen and the guardians of the pack train and delivered to Custer before the end.
One the tell tale signs of battle fatigue is amnesia. You don't remember firing, plans issued, locations of other platoons, Reno's total lost of control etc. Another sign is displaced blame, it was everyone's fail; but mine!
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